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"You are a Wilderness Guardian. That northern wasteland; that land of blood, desolation and death is your dominion. Tonight we are going home." ~His Lordship |
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Posted: February 26, 2009 02:42 pm  | |||||
      IRC Nickname: Wayne|Eregion2 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3087 Member No.: 156 Joined: January 25, 2008 Total Events Attended: 8    | In your opinion/experience, what was wrong with sectors? Since I haven't succeeded at a split-personality disorder, I can only vouch for one point of view on the subject.  Especially if you were involved somehow at the leadership level; basically what screwed us up?"It divided the clan" is valid, but already beaten to death around repeated resuscitations. I'm interested if we might have learned something from sectors that could help us today with the warmonger/skiller situation. Something more specific would be nice.  Also, remember:  Discuss. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 03:03 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 | Saying that the sectors divided the clan is probably the best way to put it, but also a very simplistic way of putting it. I remember in WGs history, there was a time where the clan was basically split into two groups (their names were somewhat elemental?). In any case, what happened there was fighting broke out, as if two clans were part of one. They each thought they were better, flamed when the "other" side messed up and blamed the entire "clan." People almost felt more a member of that faction than a member of WG (can't say with 100% certainty because this was before my time). I think that is what happened with the sectors, and is what is happening now. the warrers are angry with the skillers for not pulling their weight in the combat area. The skillers are upset because they want to do what they enjoy (skill...) but are willing to take part in the combat events, regardless of their actual efficiency. At this point, we've started labeling people fighters and skillers. Posts by these people have immediate reactions just by seeing their name on a "How to fix the problem," style topic. Then it progresses to: "You damn skillers, you make the entire clan look bad! We look like we suck in fights because we have a ML of 80, but only half of us actually fucking try!" "Well, this clan accommodates to both aspects! I don't have to enjoy both parts! I'll go to your damn wars, but because it's not my cup of tea, I won't spend all my time training to get any better at them!" And so forth. That's what happened with the sectors; the fighting between people. The idea of superiority from the fighting side primarily because they brought the name to WG. Skillers, rather than feeling superior just wanted to have fun without the constant pressure but weren't even treated as regular members because they didn't "give to the clan." I don't think anyone can argue the sectors was a good idea in terms of clarity of what is required of members who have different tastes, because on paper it's a fabulous idea. In practice, without the drama that would undoubtedly ensue, the idea still sounds fantastic. But we all know that eventually there will be rivalries. Fighters will feel more entitled to call themselves "Guardians" because they're the ones doing the fighting and getting the clan recognized. Skillers will again be treated like less of a member of the clan because they wouldn't be "contributing" to the clan. That's why the sectors failed. The separation, the division itself was just the root. It led to feelings that basically corrupted some people. Then comments were thrown and people grew more and more angry and boom! Chaos. This is why it is essential we find a compromise. Implement something, and tone it down (or if it's already lenient, implement it as is) and see how it works. We're at a point where conflict is to close for comfort. We need to try something. It might not be perfect upon implementation, but you'll never find the nitty gritty lapses without testing it first. Modify as it plays out and act accordingly. EDIT: Tip to Council indicated in orange. You might think planning is necessary to eliminate possible quirks. Yes that is true. But think about this. Companies spend years developing products. Spending months alone to find things that could go wrong and fixing them. Then the product is released, and what happens? More bugs are found. You can't find them all before the release. Let a plan loose, and watch it. If you end up finding a bug, patch it up and let it keep going. If instead the plan fails because incentives aren't enough, then scrap it. You won't really know until you try. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 03:29 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Zeth Group: Emeritus Posts: 1839 Member No.: 17 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 63 | I remember it as the clan was split into 2 or even 3 different gangs. Like Skillers vs Fighters vs Community. The clan felt split into pieces in a bad way. But it was also good just because the skillers could be just skillers and not need to go to all the fighting events and so on. I don't know what I think really. --------------------  Joined WG - 24th of June 2007 - Never left. | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 04:14 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Rage|Mike Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1948 Member No.: 1238 Joined: July 29, 2008 Total Events Attended: 132 | Well said David, especially the ending part
I think WG needs to try stuff more and see if these ideas are good for the clan or not (If it looks good on paper), There is always a 'What If' situation, I think we should overlook the 'What If' situations unless they pose something very serious and actually do the idea and see how it goes. If it's not working then it should be gone, but if it is, it stays.  Edit: Died at arma when I posted this, Rofl. --------------------  MSN: [email protected] IRC: Rage|Mike at SwiftIRC and SeersIRC Drop me a comment, click to view my RSC profile! Proud to be ex-Wilderness Guardian.  | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 04:34 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Abs Group: Emeritus Posts: 2071 Member No.: 4 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 97 | It was too complex & way too tedious work for the Council =.=. People would probably not end up joining because they feel like, 1/3 part of the clan & because it would be all too complex, they just want a simple clan really. Sure it divides up work etc. That works in real life, but I guess it's a no no in Runescape & WG. ~Abs --------------------  "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Wg Council & Secondary Leader - 21/10/07 to 24/12/08 Msn: [email protected] | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 04:44 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: ``Aaron Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1055 Member No.: 149 Joined: January 21, 2008 Total Events Attended: 34 | What was so good about sectors?  Can't remember a positive other than that skillers didn't have to go to wars and avid war'ers didn't have to go to skilling events community = emeritus its just pointless and causes too much hassle. The clan runs smoother as a unified whole. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 06:09 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Gorgemaster Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9840 Member No.: 3 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 540 | There were even more disputes between leaders + members AND between members and members... like even more than there are now.... Now, there are some people who oppose skilling and of course there are those who oppose warring, but the sectors magnified these people and there were lots more of them. Yah also as Abs said, admin was a bitch for council  --------------------    | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 07:01 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Group: Banned Posts: 2447 Member No.: 114 Joined: January 8, 2008 Total Events Attended: 149 | The only thing I would have to say is if wars/raids are enforced, some skill events should be as well. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 07:12 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Robertw56 Group: Guest Posts: 1908 Member No.: 15 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 118 |
If the skills events were against other clans yes, but otherwise why would you make skills events mandatory? --------------------    | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 07:16 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls Group: Banned Posts: 2956 Member No.: 422 Joined: April 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 130 |
Most skill events' turnouts don't affect the event itself - With wars and raids, if you have a low number, everyone suffers. Perhaps get George or Randy look into getting a skill war/olympics with another clan? THEN it could be made more mandatory. ~Mugger84 -------------------- Mugger84 Member Of WG Since 4th April 2008. WG Raid Leader Since 20th June 2008. WG Council Since 20th November 2008. Banned from WG Since 6th March 2009. DF IG Since 6th March 2009. DF FA Since 15th March 2009. Ex-Member Of WG Since 26th March 2009. Member of DF Since 6th April 2009. Clan Friend of WG Since 4th June 2009. --- ||Ex-WG Warlord || Current Member of DF || Ex-Rampage Leader ||  | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 07:44 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Rage|Mike Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1948 Member No.: 1238 Joined: July 29, 2008 Total Events Attended: 132 |
I've asked George and someone else before, can't remember who, to get us a skill war earlier this month. I was told I'll have to wait until the summer for a skilling war. :S -------------------- MSN: [email protected] IRC: Rage|Mike at SwiftIRC and SeersIRC Drop me a comment, click to view my RSC profile! Proud to be ex-Wilderness Guardian. | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 07:54 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Indivi2you Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 5361 Member No.: 43 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 623 | I had no objection to the sectors... I just go with the flow -------------------- The First, The Last, and the Only ~FLO Never say never, because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion. ~Michael Jordan      | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 09:45 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: [JC] Group: Emeritus Posts: 3320 Member No.: 23 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 147 |
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there Mugger, though some skill events don't rely upon decent attendance, many do suck if very few people attend. Ever tried Fishing trawler with under ten people? Blast furnace also only works properly with a decent amount of people too.... But more to the point with low attendance half the point of skilling events, the 'friendship building' community bit of it, is severely reduced. Its hardly good for the community if the same old 5 members attend each 'skill' event..... --------------------  Old awards wat Most Mature & Most Honourable Most Dedicated|IRC Freak|Best Emeritus Placeholder lolz | ||||
Posted: February 26, 2009 10:32 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: DZ Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 2991 Member No.: 18 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 238 | They created massive Fighters vs Skillers 'battles'. -------------------- Now back to the good part! | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 12:03 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Vephy Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 6186 Member No.: 813 Joined: June 10, 2008 Total Events Attended: 478 | Colonel resounded my thoughts on the issue very well. We need a clear compromise for everyone. I think everyone should read what he said and think about it. Also I'd like to see more skill things as well. Maybe stealing creation wars n' stuff. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 08:55 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 |
Thanks. We do Stealing Creation events but nobody comes. I've been to about two or three with WG, and each time we've struggled to get a game going between ourselves because we don't have a measly 10 people to make two teams of 5. Moreover, it's not even a matter of the type of event, it's the fact that it's not an "important" war or raid (I'm not saying that wars or raids aren't important, just using the quotes to differentiate). We've held GWD events where we barely scrape together a decent "mass". Why wouldn't come when the chance of making millions is around the corner? Even if you don't make millions, you have fun. I mean that in every possible way, these more relaxed events are incredibly entertaining (even more if you have TS...which you should). The problem is really, the other events aren't given as much weight. You tell people "Miss this war without a valid reason or you're kicked from the clan," and people will make sure their ass is there. Tell them that if they miss the war it counts as a sort of "black mark" and might lead to them being considered inactive, and they'll make sure their ass is there. But, if you just say it's a fun event, there is a far greater chance those people WILL NOT be at that event, because it doesn't "mean" anything. I'm not saying make all events mandatory, but say a person has to attend one combat (war, raid) and one skill/non-combat (GWD, D&D, SC) event each month/week. That would force people to pick the event (skill/non-combat event) of their preference. Sure, you might not have war style turnouts to these events, but having people that don't normally go is always a plus. One because they add to the group, and two because they can spread the word that the event is actually fun if not somewhat rewarding. I've made that suggestion before, so yeah. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 01:49 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Kwaichi Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1827 Member No.: 65 Joined: December 31, 2007 Total Events Attended: 119 | I wouldnt like to see Wg splited up on skill and fighting sector agin. It would just low our power as community. In my opinion we should tke RS like a game, what it also its; nd why do we play RS ? For fun ! So why do some events mandatory ? ... If you are a good member you would ttend every event you can just to meet clan members, to spent some time with the community on the same world, sme place and the sme time. We should be forced to attend, we should attend becuse of our belief. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 07:07 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 |
I agree with the not forcing to attend and it should be for fun. Unfortunately, what has happened is we have obtained greater success in wars/raids which has turned some into haters of those that are not the better members in this area. They want the average level of combat to come up and all the members to be able to tank 20 people with 99 defense. Some of us just aren't warriors. These are some inserts in a private conversation: Rachel says: I'm upset that you seem to be attacking me in a way and pushing for me to leave the clan ************** says: I'm pushing for trianing, not leaving posts. Rachel says: But I have been training, I think that is why I took it as a push to get me to leave. Rachel says: On one post you quote that trying is a good thing then when we were in pm you told me that you can only say I'm trying so many times? ************* says: Trying is a good thing, but we need to see improvement. Rachel says: If it was up to me I'd say let you have your war list and let me just be a community person. I know I'm not helping by even going to the wars. It is just a rule I have to follow ****************** says: Its just, you "need" to be interested in wars. Rachel says: why? ******************* says: Its what the clan is built on. Rachel says: I think the clan is built on community first and I'm good at that ****************** says: Nope, its not. ************88 says: you can tank better if you have 99 def Rachel says: so you have 2 that hate wars and 3 that don't train *********** says: Exactly, 2 that hate wars. Be done with them + we can have a focused clan. Rachel says: So get rid of them? that is your idea? It was quite lengthy talk and I'm friend's with *********** but his frustration is clear. It isn't really fair for either side of the issue. When sectors were removed things seemed okay at first but then slowly new rules had to come up to force the skillers to go to the wars. As that happened the war attendance may have become better but less organized and more fighting between members really. Now instead of being able to train at my own pace, I am watched and talked about by even staff. I stopped skilling and only do war things since January 15th and it doesn't really matter. As you can see I am one of the 2 that hates wars that he wants to be done with. I joined at lvl 88 and I have lvl 104 now in a year's time. That is only the combat part of what I have trained. What about what I want to do for enjoyment? What about my friend who wants rid of some of us cause we are holding the clan back from some great stuff in wars? Some form of sectors would seem to make it more fair to both of us. I don't dislike anyone in the clan. I don't think there are many that dislike me. But the constant bickering and disagreeing is not good either. I will continue to train at my own pace and to try to improve on tanking, but like he said you can only "try" so much. Please realize if your watching other member's training xp for any reason other than to encourage them your an  --------------------  Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~  | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 10:49 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Gorgemaster Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9840 Member No.: 3 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 540 | Oh I told a lot of people this... Oh maybe not everyone. I've already done a lot of preparations for this summer's skills olympics... don't want to say too much right now... but it's gonna be good k. Coming in.... June/July -------------------- | ||||
Posted: February 27, 2009 10:51 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Kiwi011 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3052 Member No.: 40 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 | Lets just say Skills and Fighting Sectors all exiled the other groups. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: March 2, 2009 02:12 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Useph Group: Guest Posts: 267 Member No.: 125 Joined: January 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 29 |
Why do we only have skill Olympics once a year? I feel like we should only have Wars for 7 days, because that's really only how many days get devoted to true skilling in WG. Not to mention, there are SO many events we can do now that don't require true skilling but can appease the skilling fans. Soul Wars, Castle Wars, Stealing Creation, Fight Pits, Blast Furnace, Diversions and Distractions, Great Orb Project, Impetuous Impulses, Trouble Brewing, and Vinesweeper just to name a few. How could warrers not like ANY of those events? "But doing that stuff doesn't increase our reputation." Care more about the people in the clan than the people who might join the clan. -------------------- Goals 78/99  | 99/99  | 92/99  | 94/99  | 82/99  | 99/99  | 77/99  mIRC Guru  WG's #1 Pyromaniac | ||||
Posted: March 2, 2009 04:31 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: [JC] Group: Emeritus Posts: 3320 Member No.: 23 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 147 | Useph, Speaking from experience, Skill Olympics is a giant amount of work to get organised even with allies as we have done previously. Normally you have to have planning begining with the other clan at least 2 months in advance (setting dates, planning, negotiating over rules etc.) and it is a very slow process as every decision that is made by both clans has to be confirmed by other members of leadership etc. Also, our potential opponents for any "Skill Olympics" are limited as we cannot really challenege a proper skilling clan (We'd get shat on by a proper skill clan, sure some WG members can make a good go at skilling, but a proper skill clan has 50+ members who all no life). While we can, and have taken on our allies in skill olympics it would loose all its significance if we kept challengeing TDM/TBE more often than we do allready. I am guessing (and hoping) that George has got a Skill olympics planned with a clan other than TDM/TBE to make it more of a challenege for us and potentially give us some publicity The skill events/minigames you suggest come down to the same old bugbear that WG members always have, if an Event Leader isn;t hosting the event that you want Why not host it yourself? -------------------- Old awards wat Most Mature & Most Honourable Most Dedicated|IRC Freak|Best Emeritus Placeholder lolz | ||||
What was so bad about sectors?