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"You are a Wilderness Guardian. That northern wasteland; that land of blood, desolation and death is your dominion. Tonight we are going home." ~His Lordship |
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Posted: January 28, 2010 10:16 pm  | |||||
      IRC Nickname: Mickey Group: Emeritus Posts: 5305 Member No.: 48 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 282    | Pretty much everyone is against bans being permanent, myself included. We have people like Flippie who are banned because someone exploited his trust, and I'm pretty sure one year on, he's learnt his lesson. Obviously there are some people that deserve to be banned, such as Dalejamesw, however, people change, and at the same time they learn from their mistakes, so why continue to punish them even after they've learnt their lesson? Not even Jagex truly permanently ban people anymore, and that's saying alot, so why should we? I'll write more tomorrow, but I just wanted to get this off my chest. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:21 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: `Nath Group: Guest Posts: 1897 Member No.: 1873 Joined: May 11, 2009 Total Events Attended: 70 | I agree with the above statement --------------------
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Posted: January 28, 2010 10:26 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Brian|30 Group: Ex-Member Posts: 565 Member No.: 1547 Joined: December 13, 2008 Total Events Attended: 75 | Skip wars! BS members! Leak information! Who cares, you can just appeal ban and get back in if enough people like you! Without permanent bans there's no leverage leaders get. In my opinion we're already really lenient; look how many people have quit and gone to some other powerhouse and been welcomed back with open arms (you included). I don't mean this to be offensive or start a flame war or anything at all like that, I'm just saying that people that get permanently banned should have deserved the ban they got. One instance I remember was when Joe was banned for too many warnings. Enough people sided against the ban where his charges were released. As long as there's an agreement for a permanent ban whereas the clan does not erupt in outrage, I believe perm bans should stay permanent. -------------------- Dragon Claws Drops: 1 2 Dragonic Visage Drops: 1 Ruined Dragon Drops: 1 Abyssal Whip Drops: 1 2 | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:32 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 7306 Member No.: 47 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 343 | Some people need to stay banned. If you open it up though some of those people can return. -------------------- July 5, 2007 - June 27, 2011 | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:35 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Webberson Group: Guest Posts: 153 Member No.: 2205 Joined: January 8, 2010 Total Events Attended: 12 | I agree, but... If a member is banned for flaming or something then fair enough they could possibly appeal to be unbanned, people can change after all. However, if they've done something completely dispicable, then no, i believe they have to stay banned. ~Webberson -------------------- Mikel Arteta  Tim CahillNothing But The Best | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:36 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Mickey Group: Emeritus Posts: 5305 Member No.: 48 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 282 |
People like Dalejames and maybe Mugger should stay banned for obvious reasons, but people like Flippie who made a mistake shouldn't still be banned, not after he was one of WG's best members for over two years. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:39 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Darth Group: Ex-Member Posts: 4601 Member No.: 838 Joined: June 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 558 | If it's a reasonable offense, like in Flippie's situation, I don't see why not. Something Lordy would have to decide on, I guess.. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:40 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: leecable Group: Banned Posts: 1938 Member No.: 410 Joined: April 1, 2008 Total Events Attended: 178 | Completely agree, unban flippie. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:43 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Brian|30 Group: Ex-Member Posts: 565 Member No.: 1547 Joined: December 13, 2008 Total Events Attended: 75 | One more thing, The hidden aspect of having the permanent ban can prove more effective than the obvious one. What I mean is people are much less likely to break rules, flame, etc., if they know what can happen to them. So not only does it do away with people who've actions deserve a ban, but also prevents people from making those actions. As for members who apparently learned their lessons; it is not like we hide rules and punishments from our members. In fact, the older application system required people read those rules. Any person who gets permanently banned should not be surprised. Flippie, though he may be a good person, was not totally blind-sided by the ban. He wasn't acting like a completely normal member and then out of the blue couldn't log onto the forums. There is no way to tell if a person has changed or not. Because a clan requires every one of its members to cooperate, even if one person has completely learned his/her lesson, not having that person is worth also not having the others that have not learned their lesson in the clan. If the person was completely innocent and did not deserve the ban, I would change my mind. My suggestion is that permanent bans should be permanent, and before permanently banning someone, council should look over it VERY carefully, which I think they do. There can't be a middle ground where, "Oh he's not THAT bad, he's a lesser permanent ban, while that one is a BIG permanent ban." Lesser offenses should be dealt with with suspension, which they are. If everyone was so against the permanent ban of Flippie, it wouldn't take this long to cry against it. Lastly my argument isn't directly towards Flippie or my hatred of him or anything like that. I wasn't part of the clan during that time, or wasn't involved in the situation with him. -------------------- Dragon Claws Drops: 1 2 Dragonic Visage Drops: 1 Ruined Dragon Drops: 1 Abyssal Whip Drops: 1 2 | ||||
Posted: January 28, 2010 10:57 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Billy|Gilli Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1545 Member No.: 1451 Joined: November 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 91 | Agree, although there are some extreme cases, serious ones that bans shouldn't even be overlooked. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 12:17 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Bam Group: Emeritus Posts: 2762 Member No.: 131 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 111 | edited. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 12:25 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Snowzak Group: Emeritus Posts: 1193 Member No.: 5 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 67 | I agree with Brian's point that bans should be permanent to be effective as an incentive to deter unwished behaviour, and I think that in theory that should stay the case. A ban is a ban, but that doesn't prevent people who should return to actually do so. The case of Joe has been cited, many others in WG's history confirm the idea that those with general assent are allowed back in, provided there is enough will demonstrated. I think that as long as de-banning is evoked case to case and after consulting with WG, like what's happening now, there isn't any problem with it. 'specially for Flippie  --------------------  London RL Meeting attendee - Paris RL meeting attendee Joined WG in October 2005 - Original DG - Ex-Raid Leader Proud Council Member from October 21st 2007 to May 19th 2008 | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 01:01 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: bto Group: Emeritus Posts: 3815 Member No.: 196 Joined: February 3, 2008 Total Events Attended: 332 | Was always against flippe being banned. He had no intention of hurting WG, and he was always a good and dedicated member. -------------------- bto  Ex-WG Warlord  "It is our direction, not our intentions, that lead us to our destinations." | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 01:19 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 7306 Member No.: 47 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 343 |
I debated unbanning Flip with Gene at RL meeting.  -------------------- July 5, 2007 - June 27, 2011 | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 02:30 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Sgtswordfish Group: Guest Posts: 1737 Member No.: 1758 Joined: March 9, 2009 Total Events Attended: 64 | as a banned person from a previous clan. i have to disagree people don't change and if they did then why come back to the clan that banned them in the first place? --------------------  Goals 2011  | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 03:57 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: DZ Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 2991 Member No.: 18 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 238 | In certain cases where people are getting banned for seemingly foolish things yes but a permanent ban is called that for a reason. Leaders can't be too soft and remove lots of them, what message does that send? -------------------- Now back to the good part! | ||||
Posted: January 29, 2010 09:06 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 | I never agreed to permanent bans, as I believe the true nature of a person can change. In RS, we are dealing with many age groups, sometimes people get corrected by their peers and they smarten up and change to be much better people. It is a process. I always thought of WG as a place for second chances. Somewhere, the unwanted person could find a place to fit in and be good. At the time of the ban, maybe a date for possible review could be added to it. I actually was really angry when Joe got banned permanently. I've read his warn log now and I was 100% right to not agree with the ban too. --------------------  Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~  | ||||
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