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IRC Nickname: Spicy63
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Well since the other topic was closed for some discussion reasons,

I've decided to open this one because I thought one of the ideas suggested inside the topic could work out extremely well. Here's the Basic Guidelines as suggest by Karl.

QUOTE

really think there is a way to work this so that we can encourage training, and at the same time allow lower levels to participate in wars. Maybe we could set up a War Training Academy.

Their would be separate training brackets, with different amounts of exp. required.
100-105 - 1 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP
106-110 - 1.5 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + 2xPrayer
111-115 - 2 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + 2xPrayer + 2xAgility
116-120 - 3 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + Magic + 2xprayer + 2xAgility
121-126 - 4 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + Range + Magic + 2xPrayer + 2xAgility +4xSummoning.

As you can see, the exp requirements are more for the higher lvls, but they also have more options in how they can get the exp.

In addition each person needs to attend 7 "classes" (war training events):

War orders and formations - covers basic orders a leader may give (this is more a test of discipline than anything else, and should a member fail to obey orders this class will need to be retaken), as well as formations such as DD, multiple DD, box, normal charge, 2 prong change, and tornado.

x2 Hybriding - CWA event where everyone needs to be hybriding. Failure to hybrid or bring appropriate gear means the class needs to be retaken.

x2 Tanking - CWA event that should focus on tanking. Getting KOed, or not tanking to the satisfaction of the leader means the class needs to be retaken.

x2 Inter-clan war - An opportunity to put everything together. This class needs to be retaken if a person does not obey orders, does not bring appropriate gear (including hybrid gear if mandated by the leader), or gets KOed.

Upon enrolling in the war training academy, you must take and post a picture of your highscores page. For those in the academy under 110 combat, for every combat level gained, they receive a "free pass" to a war where if they choose to use it they cannot be kicked.

After fulfilling both the experience and class requirements, you then graduate and will get some kind of recognition such as an under-banner or title. Graduates of the academy will also receive preferential treatment when deciding who will participate in a war.

And a couple responses:

QUOTE

Karl, I think that idea would work out great.

But the classes would have to be at set times, let's say;

Hybriding:
100-105 ... 3:00 to 4:00 Est Saturday
106-110 ... 5:00 to 6:00 Est Saturday

And so on, for every Combat Brack and Event,
That would means we'd have to have experienced people leading their 'Class' on a set time until the whole Combat Academy ended.

And if we have new members, it would never end.
So it would be an enourmous responsiblity to the Class Leaders.

But if those people were found, the idea could work out gretaly.

When I had first joined there had been a Combat Academy based on Levels and Combat Levels and included Signature Banners when you achieved a certain level. It also had it's own Forum and everyone's own topic. (No, I'm not talking about OPH)

I always had liked that and people seemed to participate in it even with our requiring them to.

Over all, fantastic idea Karl, with a few things worked out it could prosper.

QUOTE

Sorry for taking longer that I'd expected Karl, but I had some things to do before I go back to the PC to type everything up.

So , onto your suggestion:

I really like it. How exactly would the brackets work? Would it be a weekly/monthly thing? Would you then have to re-do the requirements upon entering a new bracket and possibly being held to higher standards?

I'm not so keen on the preferential treatment deal, if anything they should be held to slightly higher standards because they've graduated and are expected to know what they're doing, however I understand your reasoning for saying that and it's perfectly fine if it plays out like that.

I'm not so sure the "free pass" thing should apply to all 100- members because a lot may choose to use their prize. Maybe make it sort of like a race, or an ongoing competition amongst themselves?

What I mean is let's say we've got person A and person B. In one week person A meets the experience requirements and gains a combat level, however upon meeting the requirements he goes back to doing whatever it was he was doing before. Person B on the other hand takes longer to meet the requirements but also gains two combat levels and triple the needed experience.

In my opinion the only one that should receive a "free pass" is person B because they actually wanted to do better, unlike person A who did it solely for the prize. In light of this possibility I say limit it to three "free passes" and have the awarded to the members who go above and beyond what's asked of them (in terms of combat training of course).

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I havnt read it all, but the idea is just great..

Train as hard as possbile, and get a reward if you gained the most exp..

it really helps the clan

im up for this

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IRC Nickname: Snowzak
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And who will have the patience to each day during the lifetime of WG update the records and stats?
We can't manage to keep a simple attendance list without many imperfections, so I wonder how this'll do.

How will we find out if the numbers we set (may it be referring to levels, exp, attendance, event times) are fair for everybody?

Lastly, how do you expect classes of so little members to bring anything productive in terms of training?

The question I'm asking is: "Is it worth the trouble and complications?"

No. The best and most simple way to improve a clan's fighting skill is to have as many people from that clan as possible fight in real fights as frequently as possible.

You may say "but this gives a chance to lower levels to get better". If a person of relatively low level compared to the clan is truly motivated to gain skill in fighting, he does it with or without a training program: I speak of experience, I've seen tons and tons of low levels and whom among them grew into skilled fighters.
Those who did knew the skills without us teaching them directly - they absorbed it. They read the guides. And in the end, when they noticed that having the skills is cool, but isn't enough if you want to be VERY good, they stopped being low levels and trained, without any incentives.

This scheme is overcomplicated for the amount of members it'll benefit.

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QUOTE (Snowzak @ May 14, 2008 02:18 pm)

And who will have the patience to each day during the lifetime of WG update the records and stats?
We can't manage to keep a simple attendance list without many imperfections, so I wonder how this'll do.

How will we find out if the numbers we set (may it be referring to levels, exp, attendance, event times) are fair for everybody?

Lastly, how do you expect classes of so little members to bring anything productive in terms of training?

The question I'm asking is: "Is it worth the trouble and complications?"

No. The best and most simple way to improve a clan's fighting skill is to have as many people from that clan as possible fight in real fights as frequently as possible.

You may say "but this gives a chance to lower levels to get better". If a person of relatively low level compared to the clan is truly motivated to gain skill in fighting, he does it with or without a training program: I speak of experience, I've seen tons and tons of low levels and whom among them grew into skilled fighters.
Those who did knew the skills without us teaching them directly - they absorbed it. They read the guides. And in the end, when they noticed that having the skills is cool, but isn't enough if you want to be VERY good, they stopped being low levels and trained, without any incentives.

This scheme is overcomplicated for the amount of members it'll benefit.

I agree. Eventually I'll just want the lvls so badly I'll do it.

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Thank you Garrett and Dallar.
“The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems
is the day you have stopped leading them.
They have either lost confidence that you can help them
or concluded that you do not care.
Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~

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IRC Nickname: chip54321
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kinda a mixed opinion here, heres what i think:

I love the idea of the classes/practises. we do need to get better strategies during wars. Especially p2p.

But, I'm not so sure on the combat training side. I'm a maxed meleer, is it still necessary for me to get that 4M experience? As well, 4M is a lot of experience, I'd be surprised if i could get that in 2 months, thats a total of 1Million damage dealt to enemies, and its nearly useless for me because I'm already maxed

Also, I'm a bit worried about the "free pass" thing being abused so we have to kick 115s and end up fighting at a disadvantage. Maybe just tell the leaders at the war: "so and so's been training really hard, why not give him a go over _____".

On the other hand, the practice sessions are good ideas, but remember not to make the gap too large because attendance is necessary too.

thats all for me

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great idea (Y)

i would be definitely up for getting involved i need something to motivate my training a bit more it's too sporadic at the moment

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IRC Nickname: Spicy63
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@Snowzak

Something as simple as the Combat Academy could work as well.
Along with that thought, members could..Let's say,

Screenshot that they had no food left while tanking at the end of a Miniwar and so fourth.

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IRC Nickname: bto
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Brilliant idea
We're good at waring now, but with discipline we'd be amazing
The only thing that would be bad though is if we turned into a complete war machine and forget about the real important things

Really good idea though

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I agree with Snow. It seems to complicated and has some flaws.

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IRC Nickname: Snowzak
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QUOTE (Spicy63 @ May 14, 2008 09:05 pm)

@Snowzak

Something as simple as the Combat Academy could work as well.
Along with that thought, members could..Let's say,

Screenshot that they had no food left while tanking at the end of a Miniwar and so fourth.

Now that looks simpler.

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Joined WG in October 2005 - Original DG - Ex-Raid Leader
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IRC Nickname: Karlfischer
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First of all, ty Spicy for reviving this idea. I would have posted earlier, but I had to move out of my dorm today.

QUOTE (Snowzak @ May 14, 2008 07:18 pm)

And who will have the patience to each day during the lifetime of WG update the records and stats?
We can't manage to keep a simple attendance list without many imperfections, so I wonder how this'll do.

How will we find out if the numbers we set (may it be referring to levels, exp, attendance, event times) are fair for everybody?

Lastly, how do you expect classes of so little members to bring anything productive in terms of training?

The question I'm asking is: "Is it worth the trouble and complications?"

No. The best and most simple way to improve a clan's fighting skill is to have as many people from that clan as possible fight in real fights as frequently as possible.

You may say "but this gives a chance to lower levels to get better". If a person of relatively low level compared to the clan is truly motivated to gain skill in fighting, he does it with or without a training program: I speak of experience, I've seen tons and tons of low levels and whom among them grew into skilled fighters.
Those who did knew the skills without us teaching them directly - they absorbed it. They read the guides. And in the end, when they noticed that having the skills is cool, but isn't enough if you want to be VERY good, they stopped being low levels and trained, without any incentives.

This scheme is overcomplicated for the amount of members it'll benefit.

Yes, such a program will require significant dedication by raid leaders. However, I think you are over-estimating the time needed to maintain such a program. The stats are only posted twice, once upon enrolment, and once when applying for graduation. Certainly this is much less time-intensive than OPH. Especially when considering that it is the job of the enrollee to keep track of the exp, and someone just needs to do a double-check when the enrollee wants to graduate.

As for attendance, I think the problem is not so much that we have problems updating it, but that no one really cares about it. If attendance really mattered to people, they would complain if it was incorrect and leaders would be more apt to give more scrutiny to taking and updating attendance. If anything, this will help us take better attendance because the attendance of these events will actually count for something.

The numbers will and event times will always be unfair to someone. I fail to see how that is a relevant point when such problems apply to all training programs and not this one in particular. Compared to other training programs, this one is relatively fair in that it sets different standards for different level brackets, and requires a considerable attendance of events so that there is pressure to have these events with high frequency. What is more, this is completely voluntary, and so if someone signs up they do so knowing before-hand the requirements.

As to your question, “how do you expect classes of so little members to bring anything productive in terms of training?”, I would counter with another question: “How do you expect our current training events to do any good, when no one has incentives to attend them?” People who do host training events get frustrated because no one shows up, and with so few people showing up they cannot get adequate training. What this War Training Academy does is to create the demand for these events, and so they will be much more productive because there will be more of them and more people will attend them. You are completely right that having more wars is the best way to improve ourselves, however training events can only help us, especially when lower levels get out of practice from being cut at wars.
Ill admit that there is trouble with having members under 110 combat get a “free-pass” because it is very hard to enforce in practice, and could lead to trouble if a raid leader refuses to recognize the pass for sake of doing better in the war, or if we lose a war because a significant amount of lower levels cannot be kicked. I would rather see this provision cut or amended then the whole idea of the War Training Academy scrapped. Regardless of any official benefit to lower levels who tend to get cut from wars, this can only help them, as their abilities may be recognized in the classes that they go through, and consequently they may be picked over higher levels.

So is it worth the trouble and the complications? Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly think it is worth the risk to find out. At best we become better at wars, and at worst the program fails and we might learn some valuable lessons in the process.

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IRC Nickname: Snowzak
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The main point I was trying to bring out was that:

Holding an event restricted to 15-20 members at a certain time in the week will get you an attendance of 5-8 maximum.

And that's useless in terms of practice, a loss in terms of time.

“How do you expect our current training events to do any good, when no one has incentives to attend them?”

I've already answered that. People who have the will to do better attend with the incentive of getting better. People who do not can maybe get dragged to one or two due to an incentive, but in the end, the people that'll participate will be those who already attend the training events.

Besides, there is no use to install a separation in the clan between those who decide to participate in the Academy and those who do not.
In theory, everybody should be doing their best to improve, not only those who sign up to do so. We're not a school with three sports team, we're one big sports team with different playing positions and coaches, to vulgarize a tad.

QUOTE (Karl)

So is it worth the trouble and the complications? Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly think it is worth the risk to find out. At best we become better at wars, and at worst the program fails and we might learn some valuable lessons in the process.

I understand where you're coming from - there are plenty of schemes that don't do any harm. But we have to keep away from schemes that aren't worth the time and complication: WG used to love these kinds of schemes, to the point where we adored complication and used sectors as the paroxysm of this phenomenon.
WG was overcomplicated and required a huge amount of work for the staff, and most importantly a huge amount of tough understanding of the complexity of WG for a new recruit.

Complexity is something that we vitally need to stay away from. We've been over this with Eugene many times, and our discussions brought the simplification of many areas in WG from sectors to reqs, from Graduation to forums, from flexible event times to applications. And it's running smoothly now. Adding complexity is a step backwards.

Training schemes are good, but simplified to the max. I'm not saying a War Training program is bad, I'm just saying the way its presented at the moment is WAY too complicated.

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QUOTE (Snowzak @ May 15, 2008 07:48 am)

The main point I was trying to bring out was that:

Holding an event restricted to 15-20 members at a certain time in the week will get you an attendance of 5-8 maximum.

And that's useless in terms of practice, a loss in terms of time.

“How do you expect our current training events to do any good, when no one has incentives to attend them?”

I've already answered that. People who have the will to do better attend with the incentive of getting better. People who do not can maybe get dragged to one or two due to an incentive, but in the end, the people that'll participate will be those who already attend the training events.

Besides, there is no use to install a separation in the clan between those who decide to participate in the Academy and those who do not.
In theory, everybody should be doing their best to improve, not only those who sign up to do so. We're not a school with three sports team, we're one big sports team with different playing positions and coaches, to vulgarize a tad.

QUOTE (Karl)

So is it worth the trouble and the complications? Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly think it is worth the risk to find out. At best we become better at wars, and at worst the program fails and we might learn some valuable lessons in the process.

I understand where your coming from - there are plenty of schemes that don't do any harm. But we have to keep away from schemes that aren't worth the time and complication: WG used to love these kinds of schemes, to the point where we adored complication and used sectors as the paroxysm of this phenomenon.
WG was overcomplicated and required a huge amount of work for the staff, and most importantly a huge amount of tough understanding of the complexity of WG for a new recruit.

Complexity is something that we vitally need to stay away from. We've been over this with Eugene many times, and our discussions brought the simplification of many areas in WG from sectors to reqs, from Graduation to forums, from flexible event times to applications. And it's running smoothly now. Adding complexity is a step backwards.

Training schemes are good, but simplified to the max. I'm not saying a War Training program is bad, I'm just saying the way its presented at the moment is WAY too complicated.

Shame you are retiring, it is good to have leaders who are not easily swayed by schemes that promise much but deliver little or make us worse than we started. While I do not think this is really one of those schemes, your points about it being over complicated are well taken.

My main concern is that currently our practice events are not really helping us much, and they would be much more effective if people felt that they counted for something. These events are especially important for new members or lower levels who might be lost when they enter their first war, or may lack warring experince from being cut. Another benefit I see is the development of more advanced training techniques and tactics. We could really push people to the limits of their tanking abilities by having them tank in less armor, or improve our organization by practicing formations, swiching gear, pile switching, and cordinated anti-sniping. Having more practice events is a great way to test out the effect of strategies such as sniping, mass sniping, pile switching, or variations in gear such as holy symbol, rune mace, dragonhide body, etc..

I will try to think of ways to simplify the idea, but I can recognize a dead end idea when I see one.

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I'm not underestimating the problem of war skill gain, I'm conscious that it can be relatively slow for a new member or a low level of the clan.

But there's a limit to what intra-clan practice can do.
It can provide clicking skills, but it can't prepare to what differenciates a war from practice: the enemy's unpredictability and the awareness needed to counter it.

A good warrer has in mind the series of possible events that can happen at any time:
-The enemy can silent pile
-The enemy can pile our fall in leader
-Our target can evade a series of binds and run to the end of the arena
-The enemy pile can go by and detect my robes
-The enemy may start mass sniping
-The enemy can suddenly pileswitch on me
-My fall-in leader would surely like to know that <name> is binding/sniping the pile
-My fall-in leader is about to call a target
-A sniped enemy is on low HP near our pile
-I'm out of energy
-We're behind in terms of people still alive
-I'm getting sniped at this particular stage of the fight

etc.

Countless situations to which a good warrer asks "What do I do then?" and can find the answer within a split second.
Clicking skills (piling, spamming, tanking, binding) are important, but knowing how to answer that question at any given time being as efficient as possible is what differenciate the basic warrer from the skilled warrer.
And learning to react to the situations I described cannot be learnt in a better way than through real warring.

As I've said before, practice events can't harm, but in terms of apprenticeship to warring skills, putting more effort in finding appropriate wars would help more.
I believe briefing our raid leaders to find specific wars adapted to lower levels and newer members (full outs, matched opts with very similar numbers, 120s capped etc) and using their abilities for that would pay off much more in terms of time and gain.

I'm not against having a training program for basic techniques, but I think nobody can efficiently run such a program at the moment in our staff. If you're up for organizing the entirety of it Karl, I'm sure The Council would allow you to proceed after verification of certain things -

But as I've said before, I think our Combat Staff should concentrate on finding real fights suitable for the the quasi-totality of the clan at the moment.

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QUOTE (Snowzak @ May 15, 2008 09:42 am)

I'm not underestimating the problem of war skill gain, I'm conscious that it can be relatively slow for a new member or a low level of the clan.

But there's a limit to what intra-clan practice can do.
It can provide clicking skills, but it can't prepare to what differenciates a war from practice: the enemy's unpredictability and the awareness needed to counter it.

A good warrer has in mind the series of possible events that can happen at any time:
-The enemy can silent pile
-The enemy can pile our fall in leader
-Our target can evade a series of binds and run to the end of the arena
-The enemy pile can go by and detect my robes
-The enemy may start mass sniping
-The enemy can suddenly pileswitch on me
-My fall-in leader would surely like to know that <name> is binding/sniping the pile
-My fall-in leader is about to call a target
-A sniped enemy is on low HP near our pile
-I'm out of energy
-We're behind in terms of people still alive
-I'm getting sniped at this particular stage of the fight

etc.

Countless situations to which a good warrer asks "What do I do then?" and can find the answer within a split second.
Clicking skills (piling, spamming, tanking, binding) are important, but knowing how to answer that question at any given time being as efficient as possible is what differenciate the basic warrer from the skilled warrer.
And learning to react to the situations I described cannot be learnt in a better way than through real warring.

As I've said before, practice events can't harm, but in terms of apprenticeship to warring skills, putting more effort in finding appropriate wars would help more.
I believe briefing our raid leaders to find specific wars adapted to lower levels and newer members (full outs, matched opts with very similar numbers, 120s capped etc) and using their abilities for that would pay off much more in terms of time and gain.

I'm not against having a training program for basic techniques, but I think nobody can efficiently run such a program at the moment in our staff. If you're up for organizing the entirety of it Karl, I'm sure The Council would allow you to proceed after verification of certain things -

But as I've said before, I think our Combat Staff should concentrate on finding real fights suitable for the the quasi-totality of the clan at the moment.

Snow, you are absolutely right, that advanced know-how really only be obtained through lots of warring experience.

After today's war with SA, I am further convinced that something needs to be done so that our lower levels get the practice that they need. We had to cut everyone under 115 combat, and those who were left were some of our very best and most experienced guardians. We simply rocked SA.

We are creating a situation where our 115+ are amazing in wars, and everyone else is getting cut. We might be able to win matched opts very well, but when it comes to full outs, our inexperience will show and we are going to pounced on.

Here is what I propose, and this time it is very very simple. After every war, no matter win or lose, we have an inter-clan war. Everyone is already massed, and so this is the best time to do it, and it means that those who have gotten cut have not shown up for nothing. Attendance will be separate from the war itself, and so if someone attends both the war and inter-clan war they will get two attendance points. There is also the benefit that it helps people not get disappointed after a loss; we keep our eye on the bigger picture, and know that while the other team is celebrating, we are getting better.

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Its true what Karel says. Our +115s are in tip top shape, but the lower levels literally no practice at all. Just to name a few people, Gunsnblades, Kiwi, Pmin, and Saad are some of the people that I personally nearly always see at every war. They make their efforts to show up, hybrid, and whatever it takes. However, nearly everywar I participate in I see these people cut. Some skills you can only obtain and strengthen with waring.

Maybe to get the lower levels more experienced, we find a lower level clan and do a capped fight. Maybe something along the lines of only -115 cmb, leaders allowed, and X amount of (insert levels here permitted)

This wouldnt be designed to discriminate or to deprive the hardworking +120s of their rights to fight, but it im sure something can be created to give the lower levels their chance to fight.

Also, more full out wars could help the situation too. Though many may be unexperienced, maybe one full out war every 2 weeks or so wouldnt hurt. It wouldnt have to be for Raw or RSC post, but just for a fun fight.

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Please be aware something like this is being discussed at the moemnt, ad you will probably see it coming out in the next few weeks/month.

~Evil

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this would be great

would help us train learn to war properly and get rewarded

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