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Posted: June 30, 2008 11:17 pm  | |||||||
      IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58    | OK, its difficult to know where to begin. This feeds off partially from what anth has left about, and partially built up over a number of weeks. I've been making lots of suggestions lately. If necessary, this will be the last one. If the issue is taken into account, I'm glad. If not, well, i'll zip it and slowly move away from the scene. What I am putting onto the floor is in 2 parts. Firstly, the suggestions forum, and secondly, a whole assesment of our warring technique. Remember that the key thing I want from this is not necessarily action, but response. I'll come to that later. 1) Well firstly, let's look at suggestions. Primarily, the suggestions forum. Suggestions are the ignition for improvement. They are also one of the best ways for communication between members and leadership. I look at the suggestions forum and see lots of open-ended topics. On some, there's staff members saying 'yeah yeah, that'd be good' and others there's barely any staff members at all, just members. (I'd like to say george has been doing a good job though). And then nothing else happens, it gets burried in the sands of time, a potentially useful suggestion is wasted, and the person does not feel they've made a difference. Members and leaders work in equillibrium. For a suggestion to be useful, the leaders need to make something of it. The suggestions forum is a complete mess to the point there's almost no reason to have it there at all. Someone, preferably council, needs to go through it and condense the information for further discussion or action. They then need to post in the topic that its being considered or rejected, and there initial opinion on it. Xena use to do a great job at it, but who's doing it now? No one. Its like gathering wood for a fire, then throwing it into a river. Its possible that the suggestions are being considered behind closed doors in council discussion. I don't know. And that's exactly the problem. We have no idea what's happening. To us, it looks like its all being ignored. Its easy to be almost elitist when you're a leader, (i know because i've been there) and think you don't need to relay information until its dealt with. But that's completely false. What happened to council reports? Those were perfect for giving an insight into what's being considered and what will be done. People love a clan when they can give their opinion, and it is considered higher up. This clan isn't a classroom, its a team. 2) Now, i'll go on to wars, seeing as its a ginormous focus of the clan at the moment. Its clear that war tactics are very dynamic at the moment. We have to diversify to adapt to new ideas and concepts. We keep throwing ideas around and the leaders implement the ones they see fit. However, this reverts back to the original problem. The leaders go into their conference room and discuss tactics, then hold practices getting people to do them. Some of them have been effective. However, again, the members behind the wars don't seem to get much of a say, like people are signing up to be crash test dummies. Although the raid leaders are admittably very good at their job, as I have said before, they don't appear to discuss the new ideas. When they're opened up, they appear to be passively dismissed. I'll break this down into sections. Recaps - Back years ago when we had regular raids, we always had a recap saying what went wrong, where we could improve, and general motivational talk. Now I've just browsed the war forums and there's pretty much negligable material of this nature. We have members saying what went wrong and how we could improve but again, is this taken into account? How do we know? Its easy to say 'warring gives you practice' and 'we'll win next time don't worry', but what's the point in having a war when we don't learn anything from it? In all honesty, I haven't seen a large improvement from the first CWPL war to the last. Each war follows another, with barely any reflection. Well at least, clan-wide reflection. Practice - It leads onto this. When we have large scale wars, we have people getting KOed left right and centre. Its embarassing. Even I've been killed eating little food. Was I not ready? Definitely not, I was praying and hugging before the 2nd enemy was on me. But because I hadn't tanked for absolutely ages (usually being left till last), I just wasn't fast enough to survive. We NEED practice. Remember this topic I made? http://www.wildernessguardians.com/forum/i...?showtopic=3367 Again, what came from it? People said 'yeah, thats a good idea'. BTO said 'yeah, loads of people got KOed, here's the video evidence'. Then what? Another issue laid into the sand? I have not yet seen ONE tank practice. 20v20's are not tank practice. If you don't let people practice tanking, they're going to keep getting KOed. You don't learn skills by thinking about them, you need to DO them. Its easy to get a proper tank practice in, so why haven't we done it? This is the time to do it, when our name is on the line. Anti-sniping - I was discussing this in #wgwilderness, only for it yet again to be ignored. We've implemented it into the war, yet its had no introduction, its out of the blue. Some newer members may not have a clue what's going on, hence we end up with a mess with people not knowing what to do. In the war we just had, all you heard was 'get a click on X, no wait, don't attack, no don't attack yet, our target isn't dead, get a click on Y, no not yet, tap Z now go back to the main pile. Can someone please outline the advantages of having no antisnipers? At the moment, it sounds ludicrous. The sniper (who's obviously a tank) successfully distracts people from the main pile. There isn't enough people to KO him (when there is, its too disorganised anyway). The other guy gets away, while we waste energy to catch up again (at a point where energy is crucial). Once we switch again, the sniper sneaks up again and starts bashing hybrids. We were hounded by snipers in the last war, and nothing happened. Because I was one of the only ones who antisniped (along with buzz, dale, and i think someone else?), I ended up with 30hp and no food or prayer left. Someone had to do it, or else we would have had no binders left. 2 on 1 - Again what happened? The only leader who posted was BTO, and he was saying that he does it anyway. No leader actually discussed it as a tactic, so it was blatantly ignored. Tmal raised another good point, debating it. Still, we're not doing what tmal said either. Their snipers pick on our hybrids, then its a 1 on 1. Our hybrids run, hence the other guy gets away with nothing while making someone else suffer. When an antisniper comes in and attacks, its 1 on 1. When its 2 on 1, it means that we are then on the defensive side. But as tmal, pointed out, it means there's likely to be people low on food on prayer but not actually dead. Still, we don't have a good enough antisniper to deal with their snipers, so something has to be done. At the moment we're just wasting food. We need a discussion on this, to look at it in detail. The end of the fight is just as important as the start. P2P - This has been mentioned countless times, yet again, nothing has been done. When was the last time we P2Ped? A reliable source said 6 weeks ago. That's over a month and a half. We used to be equal p2p and f2p, why did we stop? We don't know because no one's said anything about it. We're burning ourself out on f2p, while WG has always prided itself in offering p2p as well. Why aren't we? In CW you don't lose any gear, and the practice will also help in P2P. Just because people aren't saying anything, im sure many people would love a P2P fight. Summary The main message of what I'm trying to say is that we need to start working as a team. There's an invisible canyon developing between the leaders and the members, and as anthony has correctly pointed out, it seems to be becoming 'corporate'. We have new members joining and they're immediately expected to know how to survive and fight in a war without help, which in some cases, just doesn't happen, and people get KOed in wars. And it isn't just about wars, what about skilling? Again, no leaders have said anything about it. We're getting a secondary warlord, which means more emphasis on wars. Skilling doesn't distract us from wars. Look at agility. In some cases, its more important than attack, defence, and strength when you're trying to catch someone up. Why do we have no agility events planned? Ever since the skill sector went down, as I predicted, skilling has been shoved into a corner. You're recruiting people who love warring, hence skilling will be further neglected. If we're going completely war-based, then say so. Its bound to lose very valuable members, but that's the risk you'll have to take. Personally, I think we should keep skilling as part of WG. Why not get opinion from the members? Don't get me wrong, I like to be optimistic. But sometimes, optimism goes hand in hand with blindness. We need to stop looking to the future, and take a look at ourselves in the present. We're getting by, but with internal problems that could haunt us in the future. There's lots of lose ends we need to tie up, and communication needs to be strengthened. If not, well, we'll see what happens. I hate to expose things in the open, but sometimes it has to be done. We're moving too fast to a point we may become unstable. Soon I will no longer sustain a role like this in WG, especially over the summer. Its in my nature to intervene when I see fit. This may be the last time. Please, feel free to discuss. (Bear in mind I am not talking about all of the current problems, only one. Saying everything would be too much. Its easy to improve on things when its taken step by step) -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow"  | ||||||
Posted: June 30, 2008 11:38 pm | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: Pazenon Group: Emeritus Posts: 1477 Member No.: 33 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 79 | Read it all, and I really can't add anything to it. Well said  -------------------- | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 12:14 am | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: General199 Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1073 Member No.: 318 Joined: March 11, 2008 Total Events Attended: 0 | I have hosted practices in which hardly anyone shows up. We maybe have at most 15 people show up to them. Anti-Sniping is already changing. We started with a choosen anti-snipe but now we are going to focus on working on pile switching style. Where we ask people to turn around and hit the sniper, then say to get back on the main pile. --------------------  | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 12:31 am | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: bto Group: Emeritus Posts: 3815 Member No.: 196 Joined: February 3, 2008 Total Events Attended: 332 | [QUOTE] 1) Well firstly, let's look at suggestions. Primarily, the suggestions forum. Suggestions are the ignition for improvement. They are also one of the best ways for communication between members and leadership. I look at the suggestions forum and see lots of open-ended topics. On some, there's staff members saying 'yeah yeah, that'd be good' and others there's barely any staff members at all, just members. (I'd like to say george has been doing a good job though). And then nothing else happens, it gets burried in the sands of time, a potentially useful suggestion is wasted, and the person does not feel they've made a difference.[/QUOTE] I gotta agree to some extent. As a member, alot of the times I thought members were being ignored and the suggestions just to be pushed to the side. I agree that this is one of the most important links from member to leadership. However, at the same time, many suggestions are taken into account, and are being discussed in level 3 atm. We'll try our best to alert you guys [QUOTE] Although the raid leaders are admittably very good at their job, as I have said before, they don't appear to discuss the new ideas. When they're opened up, they appear to be passively dismissed. I'll break this down into sections. [QUOTE] Sorry for that apparance. We're always discussing new ideas though. I know that me and General have been talking alot about tactics and we've learned alot from our enemies. You may have noticed the introduction of "mass binders" that we learned off our war (with Corruption or VR, I dont remember). I've talked to some of our experienced snipers, and they said Triforce's antisnipe shuts them down. We've adapted Triforce's mass antisnipe technique and we've been using it for alot of our recent fights [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Practice - It leads onto this. When we have large scale wars, we have people getting KOed left right and centre. Its embarassing. Even I've been killed eating little food. Was I not ready? Definitely not, I was praying and hugging before the 2nd enemy was on me. But because I hadn't tanked for absolutely ages (usually being left till last), I just wasn't fast enough to survive. We NEED practice. Remember this topic I made? http://www.wildernessguardians.com/forum/i...?showtopic=3367 Again, what came from it? People said 'yeah, thats a good idea'. BTO said 'yeah, loads of people got KOed, here's the video evidence'. Then what? Another issue laid into the sand? I have not yet seen ONE tank practice. 20v20's are not tank practice. If you don't let people practice tanking, they're going to keep getting KOed. You don't learn skills by thinking about them, you need to DO them. Its easy to get a proper tank practice in, so why haven't we done it? This is the time to do it, when our name is on the line. [/QUOTE] We've been trying to work this out. Practices have been made, but theres been problems with them. If you look at the attendence at the practices, about 10-15 people show up. Tanking 10-15 people is nothing. We're forced to make people tank with only rune legs and shield to make it harder, but its not as close as it can be to the real thing. The people that attend these practices are usually the same ones always that actually can tank, with a few that need practice. The ones that need practice are the ones that never attend. We've also recently increased the number of fights with our allies like you suggested in the other thread. [QUOTE] Anti-sniping - I was discussing this in #wgwilderness, only for it yet again to be ignored. We've implemented it into the war, yet its had no introduction, its out of the blue. Some newer members may not have a clue what's going on, hence we end up with a mess with people not knowing what to do. In the war we just had, all you heard was 'get a click on X, no wait, don't attack, no don't attack yet, our target isn't dead, get a click on Y, no not yet, tap Z now go back to the main pile. [/QUOTE] Sorry about that, I was trying to get a pile switch but he kept hugging the wall  This is pretty strong point. There should be more guides up in the guide section to help out newer members [QUOTE] Can someone please outline the advantages of having no antisnipers? At the moment, it sounds ludicrous. The sniper (who's obviously a tank) successfully distracts people from the main pile. There isn't enough people to KO him (when there is, its too disorganised anyway). The other guy gets away, while we waste energy to catch up again (at a point where energy is crucial). Once we switch again, the sniper sneaks up again and starts bashing hybrids. We were hounded by snipers in the last war, and nothing happened. Because I was one of the only ones who antisniped (along with buzz, dale, and i think someone else?), I ended up with 30hp and no food or prayer left. Someone had to do it, or else we would have had no binders left. [/QUOTE] Most clans dont efficiently replace their snipers. Once they're down, for the most part, clans dont send more snipers. The mass antisnipers should only hit around 1-2 times then return to the main pile. Most of the time, the sniper will have run off by now. The target doesnt really get away. [QUOTE] 2 on 1 - Again what happened? The only leader who posted was BTO, and he was saying that he does it anyway. No leader actually discussed it as a tactic, so it was blatantly ignored. Tmal raised another good point, debating it. Still, we're not doing what tmal said either. Their snipers pick on our hybrids, then its a 1 on 1. Our hybrids run, hence the other guy gets away with nothing while making someone else suffer. When an antisniper comes in and attacks, its 1 on 1. When its 2 on 1, it means that we are then on the defensive side. But as tmal, pointed out, it means there's likely to be people low on food on prayer but not actually dead. Still, we don't have a good enough antisniper to deal with their snipers, so something has to be done. At the moment we're just wasting food. We need a discussion on this, to look at it in detail. The end of the fight is just as important as the start. [/QUOTE] We could try this the next fight. I know a few people do it already, but having some more wouldnt hurt [QUOTE] P2P - This has been mentioned countless times, yet again, nothing has been done. When was the last time we P2Ped? A reliable source said 6 weeks ago. That's over a month and a half. We used to be equal p2p and f2p, why did we stop? We don't know because no one's said anything about it. We're burning ourself out on f2p, while WG has always prided itself in offering p2p as well. Why aren't we? In CW you don't lose any gear, and the practice will also help in P2P. Just because people aren't saying anything, im sure many people would love a P2P fight. [/QUOTE] Agreed. As a member I complained about this alot . One of the reasons i've heard for p2ps is that none of us are experienced. I guess the more we avoid it, the less experienced we'll be. I believe glenn talked about getting us a p2p war this week after the other threadAnd it isn't just about wars, what about skilling? George, Saad, and Anat have done a pretty good job on making skilling events. Theres usually at least several events for the week to choose from Thanks for making this tuna, we'll take everything seriously into account EDIT: why are quotes not working  -------------------- bto  Ex-WG Warlord  "It is our direction, not our intentions, that lead us to our destinations." | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 12:50 am | |||||||
| IRC Nickname: Pazenon Group: Emeritus Posts: 1477 Member No.: 33 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 79 | The new mass antisniping tactic is new to WG. It should be implemented more clearly, as in to say, in a way to make all WG members do it when in a war. It isn't clear as it should be right now, -------------------- | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 01:38 am | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: Mike|Sonix Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1483 Member No.: 13 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 103 | Mike, I don't know what to say. The whole warring thing doesn't really apply to me because I'm not in WG to war. But everything else sums up my feelings almost perfectly, especially about the skills. I'm sorry BTO but what you said about the skills isn't entirely true. And even if it were, minigame events aren't enough. Theres so much more that could be done that isn't. Used to be a lot more fun when we had skill wars with allied clans. In my honest opinion, I really wish we had skill sector back. We all know that won't happen. --------------------   | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 09:02 pm | |||||||
| IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58 | Most clans dont efficiently replace their snipers. Once they're down, for the most part, clans dont send more snipers.
Poor attendance has always been, and will probably always be, a problem for pratice. All you can do is reward those who come, and offer them in a range of timezones. And its still easy to have an effective tanking practice with 15 people. Its a hard job tanking 10+ people with rune scims when you have no armour, especailly without prayer. There's so many paramaters - its easy to have a good tank practice rather than a 7v7 stalemate folk dance.
General, I've already said about it. We all know what it is and how to do it. The thing we need to know is why its better (not 'because clan X does it'). I'm not convinced its the best way
Again, this is what I've been saying. Snipers aren't idiots. They know when people switch away from them again and they'll just keep sniping out, becuase there's NO ONE to distract them. You can keep bouncing on and off snipers forever, and never get any kills at all. Meanwhile, the guy who was being piled has had chance to gain a good energy advantage and therefore handicapping us. The key questions keep coming up. We (or probably just I) need to know why this tactic is being used and what its real advantages are as appose to set antisnipers. It only really works against incompetnant snipers who panic and dig their haed in the sand. Problem is, usually the snipers know what they're doing. -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow" | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 09:15 pm | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: Snowzak Group: Emeritus Posts: 1193 Member No.: 5 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 67 | I don't have much time to go in detail about what I think concerning the warring, but I definetly agree to Tnuac's point about Leader Reports and Summaries of BehTheSc Work. I recall at one point regularly reporting what we were in the process of conceiving and I sometimes see that in random topics, and even small posts here and there, I now realise, are helpful for those who are interested in the clan's development, and how they can contribute to it. I also recall having this kind of "gap of communication" in EH when I was FA/Member there, and it was one of the primary reasons I'd left. On a sidenote: instead of saying on leaving topics "Tell us stuff if you're going to leave about it" maybe think the other way around: ifthey're not going to come tell you what's wrong, it may be your job to ask them if something is wrong. NB: Sorry if this post reveals any post-leadership syndrome.  --------------------  London RL Meeting attendee - Paris RL meeting attendee Joined WG in October 2005 - Original DG - Ex-Raid Leader Proud Council Member from October 21st 2007 to May 19th 2008 | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 09:35 pm | |||||||
| IRC Nickname: {Rene} Group: Guest Posts: 838 Member No.: 267 Joined: February 25, 2008 Total Events Attended: 55 | You definatly put up some valid points. Definatly on the team part. Atm in the 1 war I've been to I notice alot of members just walk around clueless. Just because they don't know what their warlord is talking about on ts. Now for your anti snipes I suggest a different system as we're trying to do now. The one you wish to use will let the main pile run around freely. because the time it takes for that one hit our pile could have cleared a wall already. I suggest a Team anti snipe. Basicly you make a topic on the forums with two listings. A Red team and a Blue team. The list will take alot of attention and updating but if done right it'll work just fine. When doing this the leader just has to call 'Blue team anti snipe Tnuac' for example. What is the advantage to this? There is one team on our main pile at that time which has their main focus on binding him not that much as to hurting him. Which'll keep him close. Now if you have about 15-20 people anti sniping you. You'll be forced to use prayer and usually food to stay alive. Which will weaken the sniper and after a few of these even the best tanks will be an easy pile. Also I think we should replace our snipers once they have lost X amount of food. This will result in a more effective snipe team and even after alot of anti snipes none of our snipers would have been majorly weakend. Another thing in general is binding: I did it in the ltpk war but all that resulted from it was me losing over half of my food to snipers. Not just because we had a bad anti snipe system. But also because very few other people weren't afraid to bind. But thats just foolish. Lets say we have 35-40 binders on the main pile. They have 5 snipers thats 7-8 times more than them and they can't possibly hit us all. Just put on your when they get off robes back on and they won't be able to weaken us as much again. To the skilling: I definatly agree. I think maybe we should hold another skill war. Those were always fun. --------------------  | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 09:40 pm | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: Jenny Group: Emeritus Posts: 1967 Member No.: 19 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 56 | I agree completely with what you are saying. The only way we can improve is to practice, we can do it with ourselves form teams and practice on each other. Stop often and advise each other. The war was awful from the standpoint of calling targets, I only found one or two the whole time. I noticed lpt was just calling Lpt when they chose a target, they had piles everywhere. I was being sniped a lot, so I anti sniped back. It seemed better in the past when the council had definite roles to do. Xena did suggestions/complaints. I think I did graduations and promos. What I am saying is we all had roles but worked as a unit. Warring is being emphasized a lot lately with the CWPL and having a fight every week, but other things are important as well. It is nice to see the Boss hunts, and god wars events, but other than that I don't see a lot of comradeship like we have had in the past. I guess its different now, but when I used to go into the wildy with you guys, it was absolute trust there. You had someone to watch your back. The solidarity is missing, the heart is gone. Can we get it back? If we don't it won't matter we may not be around to see what happens. --------------------   | ||||||
Posted: July 1, 2008 10:15 pm | |||||||
 IRC Nickname: Sebastian Group: Guest Posts: 192 Member No.: 1000 Joined: June 26, 2008 Total Events Attended: 0 | well said but we are having more f2p cuz of cwpl? more important? --------------------  | ||||||
Posted: July 2, 2008 12:57 am | |||||||
| IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58 |
We didn't join CWPL so it can completely dominate us for 8 weeks. Sure, f2p is important, but p2p helps to develop the skills for f2p (teamspeak organisation, pile switching, tanking, anti-hugging, pretty much everything). You could go on forever making excuses in favour of f2p. The only way to get p2p back is stop being so biased against it, and open the oppertunity. In all honesty, our constant f2p wars aren't doing much good for developing organisation, its barely improving. Rene you raise an interesting idea, i'll look into it when I have time (tommorow) -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow" | ||||||
Posted: July 2, 2008 02:57 am | |||||||
| IRC Nickname: General199 Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1073 Member No.: 318 Joined: March 11, 2008 Total Events Attended: 0 |
You can see that in the war we had late night against Triforce the pile switch tactic worked perfect. The true objective is to have enough people hit the sniper to the point where you take away a lot of his/her food or even ko him/her. Then also still have people on the main pile where they are still binding and hitting the main target. -------------------- | ||||||
Tnuac's last attempt