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Posted: July 20, 2008 06:09 pm  | |||
     IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64    | Sorry about posting this twice, but I think it important enough not to get missed. So I am posting a copy of it here as well. PLEASE, PLEASE BEAR WITH ME AND GET THROUGH THIS TOPIC! It is offered up as a suggestion and represents the "best practices" that businesses use to keep their organizational culture healthy. Companies who do not do this eventually make bad decisions and fail. I was going to post this in Level Two, but upon consideration I think it needs to be where all members can see this. Why am I writing this? I have tried hard to adjust to this topic. I did several things, first of which was never to read it, because I had serious misgivings, now that I have read through it I must say the following. The "Hall of Shame" does four things: 1) Publicly humiliate the person being banned. 2) Is in a place where the whole clan can see it. 3) Places doubt in every single persons mind reading it. 4) No one can trust each other. Now to go through the points one at a time: Number 1) Public humiliation: I bet even your own mother would not humiliate you in public when you get into trouble. And we all do from time to time. No, the true punishment always starts when you get home and in private. In business you try to train and bring the misfit along and only if training and attention does not work do you take steps to eliminate the resource. Yes people are resources and should never just be tossed away. Number 2) Whole clan knows: This approach should never be used in a group that wants to bond and have a sense of community! Yes, keep a list of warnings and suspensions, but it should be, and I can't emphasis this enough, PRIVATE. The leaders should be the only ones who know and they must never reveal who, what, or why. If they say someone is out, then they are out. This will accomplish several things, the group will respect you, (because no one likes a gossip) feel more secure, develop trust (that they won't be the next one with their head on the block!) and insure open communication. This is the first law of management!!!!!!!!! Number 3) Places doubt in all who read it: Even bad guys have friends and if or when you are confronted by one or several people stating, "We do not like you for misjudging our friend!" or, "We/I am not happy and don't like you anymore for doing this." Toughen up, being a leader involves being unpopular sometimes, for you must always keep the greater good of the community in mind. The only answer to return to this is, "It is private between myself and the person in trouble." Number 3, allows Number 4 to be remedied) Saying no and keeping confidences is hard, but it will promote respect. It sets a good example and eventually, especially in a damaged community, will restore trust both within and between members of the group. As trust returns so will the vibrancy and health of the community. In conclusion remember that to lead is to be set apart, alone. This was something Gene always struggled with and as far as I know most good leaders do. But if you care about WG then care enough to lead well! Leadership is a burden and it is ok to lay it down should it become to hard to carry. Offered up in WG  --------------------  WG love forever, Kristy  | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 06:31 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: Yingy Group: Clan Friend Posts: 2205 Member No.: 27 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 | A very well constructed post, I have posted a topic which you have replied on. The replies i got where such things as "Oh i will read it tomorrow" or "Oh i'm not in the mood". I still think that in order for this community to flourish, We ALL need to sit back and think about what we ALL need within this clan or it WILL fail. This topics are to show that people care, it's one thing to sit behind the boarder and do things, a next to share concerns and point out faults. -------------------- Friend's Forver The Long Road Ahead - 91/99 Prayer   | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 06:34 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64 | Thank you Simon for your thoughts. You are so right! You reminded me, this post is not intended as a criticism, but rather a suggestion. I think our current council is great! WG -------------------- WG love forever, Kristy | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 06:48 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: Kiwi011 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3052 Member No.: 40 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 | I glazed through this but as it seems I like the "Hall of Shame". @1 [Disagree]Imagine how many crimes irl would happen if when a convict was released from jail they had a sign on them at all times saying "Sex Offender" ,"Child Rapist", "Killed both my wife and 2 kids", "Stole Cars" , "Drug Seller", etc I don't believe as many would occur. It also helps so you can stop hell of a lot of arguments. I remember when Jordan was banned and no one knew why until like 4 days later there was a post saying he was a rot spy and council had evidence. In those 4 days, there was a lot of argument. @2[Disagree] This stops hell of a lot of arguments. I remember when Jordan was banned and no one knew why until like 4 days later there was a post saying he was a rot spy and council had evidence. In those 4 days, there was a lot of arguments and who knows what. Thats 1 example of many that would have occurred. If warrior/seahawkfan(still against their banning) were banned and no one knew why I would be pist as hell, but even though I am against their ban, i at least no the reason it was done. @3 if someone is banned, w/ or w/o reason their will be rants, arguments, and disrespect. It just happens. All arguments have this(some have no disrespect). But it all eventually goes away and people move on. @4 If a member is banned and I don't know why, I will most likely lose respect. When managing a company if someone is fired, everyone will most likely know why because it was for a good reason, you dont just get fired for the hell of it.(unless its a layoff). My view. Sorry if I disagree, but yea. --------------------  | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 06:53 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: Aardvark Group: Banned Posts: 759 Member No.: 322 Joined: March 13, 2008 Total Events Attended: 175 | Very well said starzshine and i agree with you, reasons why dont need to be made public, it does cause an odd feeling reading that topic, yes keep it amongst leaders and or in a higher lvl forum. --------------------    | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 07:04 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64 | Kiwi, your points are sound, but in general experience has proven that things like these need to be handled privately. The examples you use are real life threats. No one in this clan is that kind of person. And yes I agree with you, anyone that toxic should be known. But again dignity requires privacy and I believe God made us with imperfect memory for a reason. Young people make many mistakes along the road of maturity and those mistakes when used against them twist the adult they will become, but when used properly will give them depth and wisdom producing a strong, resilient healthy successful adult. Yes you have found out my secret, I am a "glass half full" person. I believe that if you expect good from people you will get what you expect. And when you don't, se la viv! Such is life, it all equals out. Thanks for the honest response. WG -------------------- WG love forever, Kristy | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 07:06 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: Zlat Group: Clan Friend Posts: 2781 Member No.: 9 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 60 | 1) Publicly humiliate the person being banned. I disagree on this point, if it humiliate a person then the person should had thought of that before doing the crime first? and if we do not post why people get banned and reasons then they could just come back after a time and we will forget what he was banned for, thats sort of the whole point of hall of shame. --------------------   | ||
Posted: July 20, 2008 07:17 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64 | Why do you think we do not put people in stocks anymore. It is counter productive. Public humiliation is only a deterant to those who care. It is the punishment of being banned or kicked out that produces positive results. Public humiliation does more damage to the community than it helps. This is a game and we are a band of brothers and sisters. Plus we have a lot of young persons, who will and do make mistakes. We need to trust each other to care about each other in spite of our differences and or so varied backgrounds. Also leaders must keep a list, it is their responsibility to do so and to pass such list along to successors. PS God bless the person who added spell check to this forum. I love you!!!!! -------------------- WG love forever, Kristy | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 03:56 am | |||
 IRC Nickname: immolatus2 Group: Guest Posts: 193 Member No.: 1100 Joined: July 5, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | Kiwi011, you lost your marbles... how can you compair people being banned here to rapers and muggers and all that...???... im sorry but you have lost touch with reality... tbh you need to take some time to get better...  --------------------   | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 11:52 am | |||
 IRC Nickname: Abs Group: Emeritus Posts: 2071 Member No.: 4 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 97 | It's a very nice post, and even though it is only a small aspect to our clan, as you have shown, it has quite a large impact. Even so, initially, the Leaders decided to keep the Hall of Shame for just the Staff, but then the Hall of Shame forum was the pathway, a communication from the Leaders to the members to say that "This person has been banned". Someone people were confused to start seeing members going missing, and that they wanted to be notified when someone has been suspended or banned. Therefore the leaders at the stage, took up the suggestion of opening the Hall of Shame to members of Wg and implement it, just like this suggestion to close it. Maybe after a few more replies, we can get a vote in General matters if people want it open, viewable by all, or just for Leaders. Thank you for your suggestion, ~Abs --------------------  "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Wg Council & Secondary Leader - 21/10/07 to 24/12/08 Msn: [email protected] | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 12:48 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 | I can see both sides to this Hall of Shame No one whats humiliated and young people are not the only ones to make mistakes. Even I do that, but I try to go back and apolygize for it There is a need to know if someone is out of the clan so you don't discuss things with them and maybe I would remove them from friends list if I really didn't talk to them as a close friend. Posting reasons should be very generic in my opinion like the person broke rule  1, 3 and 5 No needs to go into such details for myself. If it is a close enough friend you will know the reasons anyway otherwise could just be more drama and gossip.It feels really terrible knowing a person hates you in your own clan when you think of everyone as family. People say don't leave over one person, but as you see each other everyday it is hard to not feel that void over knowing they hate you. Even the most rotten person has good somewhere in them and maybe they are just a diamond in the rough needing to be shined. Some friends are gold and others silver. So make new friends and keep the old. --------------------  Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~  | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 08:37 pm | |||
 IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58 | Interesting points kristy. It makes sense that you should know about the management of people, as you're more experienced than any of us. The question is whether something from the adult management world can be applied to a clan demographically constructed predominantly of youths and young people. There are many contrasts between a business and a gaming clan, for example the assinging of staff, and the absense of any means of pay, among many others. It is a grey area whether the hall of shame to young people has the same effect to say, stocks to the larger audience. Young people are more dynamic, and more likely to bounce back from bad situations. (Usually older ones are too mature to get banned in the first place) Starting from a different angle, the hall of shame is important from a objective point of view. People need to know what's happened to someone. Naturally, people in the clan are curious as to what's going on with general matters. Leaving them in the dark may just lead to them asking, usually in public, which reverses the objective of removing the hall of shame. Especially when there is a friend of the person banned, they deserve the right to know what's happened to them and they will ask. The process of people asking, for example, in the IRC 'is X banned? why? what happened?'. This in itself will instill more doubt and distrust than the hall of shame, because people are likely to be on edge about it and feel they could recieve the silent bullet next. Meanwhile new members will face all this conversation of people being banned and as you say, become slightly concerned. You could argue that people will discuss the hall of shame anyway, but I feel that when there's more unknowns, there'll be more public conversation, and it will be more 'edgy', so the speak. One way around it is having a system where people officialy approach a staff member and ask 'is X banned?', thereby limiting it to only those who want to know. This may be more hassle for the staff, but do you feel this is better? It is true that the hall of shame serves as a mild form of public humiliation. But sometimes it is needed. If someone has betrayed someone's trust (say hacking + stealing info, because scamming is no longer applicable), people have a right to know that he is a risk. If this person is a troublemaker, then they could start twisting the minds of WG to make them think s/he was banned with no proof, and working them against WG. Without no official place for people to look at the evidence, they'll start being lead into a revolt. Sure, its rare, but it could happen. Then there's the occasions where it is well-deserved for them to be banned. Say they were openly supporting the 9/11 terrorism, or showing extreme racism or sexism. Hall of shame is a way to equalise it, because there is potential for very bad crimes, even just through text. In the real world, we see sex offenders and terrorists all the time on the TV news. The malicious ones don't care at all, and it makes people safer knowing who is a risk. You could argue that media is evil and wrong, but it is a large power in the world. Sorry it turned into a long post. It was great to hear your idea kristy, but if you could I'd just like you to discuss the points I raised. Mostly; i) People will discuss it in public anyway if they are curious, which serves the same purpose as hall of shame ii) Sometimes the stocks approach is needed, to warn people. In addition, it could serve as interesting to some, and makes them think the leadership is on top of removing the bad people. (Maybe some bannable offences are worth going in hall of shame, but some are not? That's another thing to think about). (I don't completely disagree with your idea, but just throwing up something from the other side of the discussion, because i'm just curious =p) (Appendix:) What about a change of name? Hall of shame appears a bit hostile, maybe something like 'Ban records' is more objective, and is a much better compromise? -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow"  | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 10:33 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Kiwi011 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3052 Member No.: 40 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 |
I'm sorry but when you try to give examples you don't give crap ones, you use strong ones to make a point. so don't make a post like that to me. If you dont like those examples heres some les harsh ones- Pickpocket, Pot Head, Conman, etc. feel better now? p.s-I agree w/ tnuac on the name change -------------------- | ||
Posted: July 21, 2008 11:19 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64 |
Thank you for such thoughtful consideration. My focus is and always has been to find positive ways to help people find their own way to personal success. And you raise very good points. I asked myself the following questions. 1) What problem prompted taking HOS public? 2) Has it solved the problem? If yes, how and why did it? If no, what has it done? 3) Is the current lack of community in any way affected by the HOS? Are we missing an opportunity to achieve something else? 4) What else may HOS be affecting that is not readily apparent? I was looking at the community, or rather lack of community, trying to pin point policies and/or actions on the part of the clan that could be harming it. HOS immediately jumped out at me, because it is more than just a list, it is a list of our negative achievement, failures if you will. Reading over what people have said, many good ideas emerge: changing the name, limiting HOS to only the most grievous offenders, eliminating it altogether. PS: Kiwi you posted while I was writing this response and I want to add that you are a real gem!!!! Thank you for your input, you do make valid points and do not deserve to be teased. You have the ability to speak plainly, do not let other opinions of that out spokeness bother you. -------------------- WG love forever, Kristy | ||
Posted: July 22, 2008 12:30 am | |||
 IRC Nickname: Angus0000 Group: Emeritus Posts: 705 Member No.: 572 Joined: May 3, 2008 Total Events Attended: 128 | I personally believe that it is important to show why the person was banned from the clan. In the wake of a ban, everyone wants to know why it happened. Without a formal, clear notification, the issue is left to speculation, which facilitates the creation of rumors and leads to argument. Without an explanation, members are liable to challenge the decision of the leadership, generating a lack of faith in the structure. I understand the idea that it is wrong to humiliate members of our community, but from what I have seen, the type of action that results in a ban makes that humiliation totally justifiable. --------------------  | ||
Posted: July 22, 2008 03:11 am | |||
| IRC Nickname: immolatus2 Group: Guest Posts: 193 Member No.: 1100 Joined: July 5, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | yeah kiwi dont trip... its my opinion just like your post is that just your opinion... ill share my input in matters just the same... i didnt mean to tease you just to say it how i see it... i speak plainly and bluntly... dont let my opinion bother you, just know i dont agree with all you stated, ty, immolatus2 -------------------- | ||
Posted: July 23, 2008 07:14 am | |||
 IRC Nickname: megajayson Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9246 Member No.: 423 Joined: April 4, 2008 Total Events Attended: 216 |
umm u compared me no giving havoc back his money to a person robbing a drug dealer then getting killed.... BUT ON TOPIC yea hall of shame being public is a good idea, but i still think the reason should be public too, maybe just for clan. Because we are family in here, so if you brother or sister got kicked out of home, you would want to know why. --------------------  This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name! 7th Highest Overall for Wars Attended. | ||
Posted: July 24, 2008 10:36 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58 | I like that idea kristy (not giving specific reasons but highlighting the rules they broke). The rules should be versatile enough to cover every possible circumstance, and applying them shows they are sensible, and are created because they can be broken, with a consequence. Then again, you'll still have some of the old problems creeping up. People will want to know more detail on why the person was banned, with evidence, particularly if they are a friend. Maybe you can solve that problem by having a more secure area to prevent evidence, which is unecessary to the public but will help keep a lid on any unwanted e-drama by allowing the trusted members to review the facts? -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow" | ||
Posted: July 30, 2008 09:05 pm | |||
| IRC Nickname: Starzhine Group: Emeritus Posts: 447 Member No.: 218 Joined: February 9, 2008 Total Events Attended: 64 | I agree there would and will be clan members who will want more information. So having a place they can go to find out that the public can not see is a great idea. We are a family and our family business is private! I love it. WG PS: Sorry it took so long to respond my mother has been visiting so I have not had much time to be on line. I am taking her home Thursday, so peace returns on Friday. Got to love your family!  -------------------- WG love forever, Kristy | ||
Really want to rebuild community? II, Revisit use of “The Hall of Shame”