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Posted: September 18, 2008 05:11 pm  | |||||||||||
     IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6    | Things like this really piss me off and I'm going to try, try mind you, to be halfway civil while making this rant. WG has its own set of rules, ones that differ from Jagex, and they must be followed at all times or penalties will be incurred, correct? My issue is: Why aren't Jagex rules treated the same way? I believe we've had this discussion a long time ago but I'm bringing it here again in the hopes that it changes. I am thoroughly disgusted with certain people in this clan who think it's okay to break Jagex rules because the clan turns its back and doesn't punish those who do. Wait, let me take that back for a second. There are CERTAIN rules that WG frowns upon, like scamming or hacking other accounts, but ones that "aid" WG, are not dealt with. Why? A rule is a rule, is it not? Why should we only have to abide by rules that we think are worth the fuss while other rules are seemingly made to be broken? I have a definite problem with buying/trading RS memberships for RS gold. This is known as real world trading...Jagex rule #12, and it's being broken here in this clan by more people than one might think. Why is this being allowed? Is it because it makes WG "stronger"? Where are your people's morals? Did you forget to pick some up on your way out? I like to refer to people who buy/trade RS members for RS gold as RS whores. Afterall, what are prostitutes? They are providing a service they know is against their morals and the "rules", for money. So what's really the difference here? Please spare me the psychobabble bullshit and kiddie remarks on this. I'm being serious. That is the best analogy I can come up with right now and it seems to be rather fitting...don't you think? I don't care who is doing it, how many other clans are doing it, or why they're doing it. It needs to stop and WG has to set the precedent that it won't tolerate rulebreaking of ANY kind...WG rule or otherwise. The clan wants to move forward, this is a pretty good step in the right direction. If you agree, fine, thank you. If you disagree, please write WHY you disagree and I'll respond to those accordingly. -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:12 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Dilz Group: Banned Posts: 1403 Member No.: 973 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 151 | Lol rs whores. Well said. Not hard to get a wallie card or phone credit --------------------  LOLPNS  Perm banned. | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:15 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Jenny Group: Emeritus Posts: 1967 Member No.: 19 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 56 | I have to agree, its done a lot. We all know its done but no one takes a stand against it. It doesn't have to be advertised on our irc channel, we need some sort of stand here. The insults I heard flung at Rick today absolutely disgusted me. Wishing someone would die over something like this is getting out of hand. --------------------   | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:16 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Geofff Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1238 Member No.: 608 Joined: May 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 96 | When I sell pins (or give them away) I do it to help people. Some people have no way of paying for rs i.e Their parents won't let them use their credit card. --------------------  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:20 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 |
What are you actually helping them with though? You're making a profit so it's not like you're giving them away...THAT would be helping them, would it not? There might be a very good reason their parents don't WANT them to have it. Perhaps their grades suck, they're troublemakers, they're crybabies and want everything, there are so many factors that we, as parents have to take into consideration before making decisions like this. Maybe it's as simple as they don't want their kid to have it because they'll spend too much time playing a game and not joining a sport, or playing outside with friends. They may be worried that a membership would promote being a "hermit" because they would spend more time on the computer. It may even go so far as their parents not able to afford the luxury. Kids need to learn responsibility and to be self reliant. Most of these kids have had everything handed to them...they've never had to "work" for anything. People that sell members are enabling them to continue this lifestyle and it will end up damaging them in the long run. You're doing more harm than good. I don't think that we should be getting involved in family affairs and that's basically what this is...something for kids to work out with their parents. Oh, and thanks Jen. Yes, I'm kind of used to people shouting obscenities in my direction, however, wishing death upon someone because you disagree with them is something that I won't tolerate any more of. -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:23 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Mickey Group: Emeritus Posts: 5305 Member No.: 48 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 282 |
1. Shit happens 2. That teaches them to stop leeching of their parents and get their own fucking job? --------------------    | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:27 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Colin Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2039 Member No.: 68 Joined: December 31, 2007 Total Events Attended: 69 | Well said Rick.  --------------------   Proud WG member from January 2006 - Fall 2009 | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:48 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Geofff Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1238 Member No.: 608 Joined: May 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 96 | There are still people who work yet can't find a way to pay for memberships. Using parent's credit cards isn't JUST for RuneScape. Say if I went up to one of my parents and asked to borrow their credit card, they wouldn't just say "Here, take it." Why don't you just turn a blind eye to the happenings, I hope you're not trying to say that you would report a clan mate for breaking a rule. -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 05:59 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 |
Actually, that IS what I'm saying Geoff. Rules are rules, right? The only way to put people on the same playing field is to make absolutely certain that rules apply to EVERYONE. Why should anyone turn a blind eye? Why should you continue to get "fat" while others who play by the rules have to work their asses off for what they have? -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 06:11 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 |
Well said my friend. Despite your absolute disgust at what's going on Rick, I'm asking you politely to abandon all dignity and just "turn a blind eye". You really don't get it do you? So because someone isn't able to pay for an online game, he/she should toss aside that rule and say "It doesn't apply to me, I don't have any other way. I deserve special treatment." Now that's mature. Like Rick said, there are many, many reasons as to why someone wouldn't be able to pay for membership by following the rules, but that doesn't give that person the right to just disregard the rules. You don't get special treatment because you can't use a credit card but someone else can, that's just the way things are. If you don't like it, there's this guy called Life that you should speak to and try to get things squared away. Breaking the rules should be frowned upon. As far as I know, one of WG's rules is that we must obey all of Jagex's rules? What happened to that? --------------------   | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 06:23 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 | Well I have broken the rules myself. Not on this issue but on something else. I will be respecting the rules of Jagex in the future. I can't judge others when I myself have not followed every rule. Rick is right rules are rules and even family members on our accounts would be breaking them. --------------------  Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 06:36 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Karlfischer Group: Ex-Member Posts: 664 Member No.: 124 Joined: January 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 55 | I agree Rick, but I have given up trying to fight it. The problem is if we punish rule breaking, the only thing we are actually punishing is honestly, people still continue to break the RS rules without us knowing. The matter is also complicated by the fact that leaders of the clan themselves have been known to break rules by going on other RS accounts. There have even been times where I think people are justified in breaking the rules. The Jagex ban system is imperfect, and sometimes people are mistakenly or unjustly banned. In that case someone has a legitimate reason to break Jagex rules to get themselves a new account. Pin selling is also another difficult area, because kids are often not able to a membership through their own means. It is naive of us to think that we can actually stop pin selling within the clan, and pretentious to assume that we would not buy pins if we were in the same situation. It is easy to condemn pin selling when we have our own financial resources. Certainly WG should not become a venue for people to break RS rules by buying pins, however if people do not buy pins from WG members there are plenty of other places to get them from. Best of luck to you Rick, there was a time when I would have been 100% behind you, but there are more important things to worry about. As far as I am concerned this is Jagex's fight, not mine. --------------------   | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 06:37 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | I'm not without blame either Rachel. There was a time when I wasn't playing RS that my son would get on my account to get stuff out of my bank. He also did my firecape for me, however, he being on my account has stopped quite a while ago. I learned my lesson after he borrowed my range boots and darkbow and then somehow got permanently banned. Now I'm out range boots and a darkbow. So it's a lesson learned. You're right Karl, there are more important things to worry about, however, why not start somewhere? I've said that I'm back in WG to help, I didn't say it would all be a bed of roses. There are many people who don't have the financial means to get members Karl, they're on free servers, yet that's where they remain because they don't want to break the rules. Why shouldn't it be the same for everyone? This IS our fight Karl because we're condoning rulebreaking. To those of you who will say "turn a blind eye to it Rick", I'll say this to you..."Why can't you play by the rules like the majority of people do and not sell pins or members for personal gain?" -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 06:48 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Hyperion Group: Ex-Member Posts: 1636 Member No.: 978 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 141 | Shit Happens...... If they want to do it, then let them, the more they do it, the greater chance they get caught. Unless their actions are directly effecting people, or are really annoying, such as spamming useless stuff, i won't report them. If that's the only way person can pay for rs who cares, does it really matter if someone get s an extra 1 mil? No. --------------------    Dragon boots:29 Whips:2 | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:07 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Geofff Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1238 Member No.: 608 Joined: May 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 96 | Think of it this way: Not everyone will abide to the rule if it becomes enforced -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:07 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Gorgemaster Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9840 Member No.: 3 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 540 | This is not going to turn into a flamefest. If it does the offending posts will be deleted and warnings given. Rick has every right to give his opinion, let's hope it is highly valued. --------------------    | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:08 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Yingy Group: Clan Friend Posts: 2205 Member No.: 27 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 21 | I have to agree, a member has been asked plenty of times for RS membership and had a go at another member for not wanting to be known only for RS membership so he has stopped it. It ruins your reputation and this clan. I think the insults aimed at rick are horrible, he is looking out for this clan. -------------------- Friend's Forver The Long Road Ahead - 91/99 Prayer   | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:08 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Valdremia Group: Ex-Member Posts: 289 Member No.: 64 Joined: December 31, 2007 Total Events Attended: 9 | First of all, I will confess that I had not read the progression of the discussion beyond Rick's 2nd post of explanation. Given, in honest truth, I'm tired but not without the understanding that I wish to understand the intermediate concerns raised here. Rule 1 in universal which is a rule and isn't a rule - no one's perfect. Rules, are made to keep things in order as they "should" but not necessarily given all the other "of shouldn't" for reasons beyond simply "rules" as in "ideal" of black and white as oppose to why should there be gray, worse, gray have such diversity of reasons it can be "difficult" to identify yes, no, "right?" and "wrong?". First, although in analogy - in perception of perceptions - there are no moral wrongs to the service prostitutes provide where needs are concerned. I will not go into depth of such unless agreement in response to do, of which I will respect, right or wrong. As in trading. Yes, to many extend I agree with your questionings. It is a difficult thing to answer to as well. While rules are rules, they are set in perimeters for the sake of setting standard of expectations in the realms of what's "yes" and "no". Those perimeters are given due to an understanding of what is "moral" in principles to "right" or "wrong". There will be times where "right" and "wrong" isn't adhering to rules and regulations. Anyways, what should we really do in these circumstances of conflict? Like the ones you've cited? This is interesting. Because the debate if yes and no (not "right" or "wrong") can varying, open to options for that ideal solution. If not, the solution is simply trial and error, forgiving to know - based on even just this suggestion post, a start to finding something feasible, ideal or not - it may not be realistic or idealistic in the end. Answer or no answer? Or I won't have any response to this, afterall. P.S. (edit): What I am saying is. Yes, by all understanding it is "wrong" and that those rules are set to keep things in order. But, sometimes, it isn't possible to expect that perfect adherence, just so because there's a "rule" that sets the parameters to what we "basically" understand as "ok" or "not ok" (note: not "right" or "wrong") Simply, because, while there are standards, it can be a difficult things to determine its all time validity for being black and white. Life isn't about black and white, its about the greys as well. And as much as we can most often loathe the "greys", it is also those that makes us deeper than we think or feel we can if only we can accept that, in life, its more grey than its black and white. But they all co-exists, conflicting and complementing at the same time. Without either, you cannot have one of any other. Hence, an interesting, but conflicting response to give. Nice topic Rick> Possibly will need more as we progress to understand for a conclusion. Note, conclusion not necessarily solution. -------------------- "I will listen to you, especially when we disagree." - Barack Obama  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:09 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Gorgemaster Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9840 Member No.: 3 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 540 | Now for my opinion. I have always frowned upon, hated and strongly discouraged Real World Trading and I see your argument Rick. I do indeed think that this should be dis-allowed from WG, just like scamming and hacking would give you a one way ticket straight ouf of the WG door.... However either the staff agree or disagree about what should be done. They/we (they being the council) need to come to an agreed decision that all should abide by. Disagreements cause rifts and problems between staff, which is not needed. Edit: To sum up, we either punish or we don't punish. There cannot be any "punish this person", "we're not gonna punish this person for the same offence" -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:18 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Buzzard1985 Group: Emeritus Posts: 817 Member No.: 723 Joined: May 30, 2008 Total Events Attended: 52 | Even if this topic is here people will continue selling/giving away pins. Yes, yes it's a Jagex rule, but does it really affect anyone else other than the 2 breaking the rule? Rick, I see what your saying, but honestly... How does a WG getting members for a month by buying a pin off another member hurt WG in anyway? If we didn't turn a blind eye to a lot of things WG would be down to Anat & Evil (Mods) right now. I honestly will continue to keep ignoring it's happening, who knows.. I might need a pin someday too. --------------------  - [99 / 99 Woodcutting] - [85 / 99 Fletching] - [82 / 99 Fishing] - - [14 / 24 Skills 70+] - | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 07:47 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Mistah_Vince Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2235 Member No.: 233 Joined: February 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 85 | Real World Trading is really bad, but I don't see the problem with getting PINs. A long time ago I bought my membership from somebody for a good year and half. Why? Because my parents didn't want to pay. No Rick, they didn't really have any good reason, they just said "I don't want to pay 5 dollars a month." So, I did it the only way I could. Eventually, I convinced them to pay for it, and that's why I'm still here, but not everybody can manage that. I can't really agree or disagree with you, as I have broken that JaGeX Rule, as well as a few others. =\ I've had people go on my account to get my Fire Cape. That's 2 Rules. But there really is no harm done to WG. So what? One more person has +4 extra Strength Bonus and another member gets p2p to train etc. It helps in the long run. =\ --------------------  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 08:46 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Wayne|Eregion2 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3087 Member No.: 156 Joined: January 25, 2008 Total Events Attended: 8 | It's funny how threads with Rick on them get like 3-5 pages of replies a day.  Anyway, personally I spent the first two years of RS in F2P because my parents wouldn't let me pay for an online game (very much like Vince). The third year I had P2P over the summer but had to drop it during the school year even though I could prove mathematically it wouldn't influence my grades (you don't think I'm serious do you, lol). The fourth year I was 18 and they backed off, so I'm a full-time member. I paid for it myself the whole time as well. Mostly, I don't believe the breaking of any Jagex rule should be allowed, but at the same time I think the council is pretty much doing what I'd do in their place. You can't do it publicly, if you do sell/buy PINs it's between the buyer and seller only and is anonymous to everyone else. If we tried to take it any further than that we'd risk just incurring a witch-hunt that wouldn't work anyway but would rip our community to shreds. If there's any way to put more stringent restrictions WITHOUT doing that, I'm all for it.
I don't think rules aren't really based on "right" and "wrong" but more about protecting the population from hurting themselves or others (there are exceptions). "Right" and "wrong" usually comes into play when trying to justify those rules. Just my two cents, you should post more Vald you really get into stuff.
I loved that reply.
Just wanted to mention, swap out "Pin" with "drugs" and you get an interesting resemblance. 
I just thought that was interesting. PS: Not to say I follow all the rules just because they're rules. If I think something is completely idiotic I probably won't follow along, but I'll deviate PUBLICLY. If you're not willing to take the rap for whatever you're doing that's against the rules then you don't deserve to not follow the rules (personal exception = porn). --------------------  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 08:56 pm | |||||||||||
 IRC Nickname: Tnuac Group: Emeritus Posts: 1806 Member No.: 51 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 58 | Well like quite a few others, I'm on the fence on this one. Before we start, I can almost guarantee that probably the vast majority of people in this topic, if not every single one of them, have broken a rule some time or another. This could be: - Trading items between a main and pure account (including giving it to someone to transfer across) - Letting a friend use your account, even if they're sitting next to you - Advertising the clan chat room, or the clan itself - Offensive language (basically anything that comes up in ***** because jagex set it as offensive, so you were offensive, and have broken a rule) - Personal details (This includes surname, AGE, msn names, emails, hometowns) - Advertising (This can be anything - if you say 'the iphone is great' or something, you've broken the rule) - Third-party software - A lot of us will have used swiftswitch, which is a breech of the rule - AFK training - Oh yes, this is specifically mentioned in jagex rules. Even if you went away for the computer for a matter of seconds, you broke a rule. If it was to go for a piss, grab a snack, pull the curtains, do homework, communicated with someone, flick a light switch, you broke jagex rules and are, when following jagex rules, as bad as someone who hacks, scams, curses, or uses an autominer. If you check the jagex website, afk training literally means leaving the keyboard, for however long. If you've broken any of those rules, you're being hypocritical. You can suggest that they stop what they're doing and give reasons for it, but its slightly unfair if you actively attack them for it. If we're following jagex rules, you should ban somone for AFK training (say, switching on a light being AFK for 6 seconds) as opnely as banning them for hacking your best friend. Is that stupid? Of course its fricken stupid. Catch my drift? Jagex rules aren't the ten commandments. You need discression. Rick's opened up a valuable flaw in our rules, but there's far more to it than simply enforcing them while following the book. Anyway, i'll give my input on the rule in question. If we're enforcing this rule, we'll enforce every jagex rule (if its for jagex's sake we're doing it). That means someone who asks for or gives their age should receive the same treatment as someone who buys or sells a PIN. Unless of course we're deciding to be selective. In that case, we need to remove the 'you must follow jagex's rules', and base the implementation of new rules purely on moral basis, completely ignoring the jagex rules. It can't be one way or another. Of course, we don't want to be nazis (excuse my use of the word), so we have to be selective and be independant of the jagex rules, using discression instead. Now, as for PINs. I've never bought or sold a PIN and never will (because I have a phone). I have admitedly had a trusted friend buy me members though. Was this against the jagex rules? No not at all. No RS currency was involved. I have though broken probably several rules in the past. It didn't directly affect anyone, and I have 0 black marks after 6 years. Maybe I'm lucky, I don't know. Plus as karl said, many people have been unfairly banned in the past. This shows that jagex cannot be completely trusted, because their ways of going about things are imperfect (to quite a large extent in some cases). This really signals that you should approach their rules with caution. Not just follow the rules themself, but identify what you can get banned for (often something not in the rules, or incorrectly portrayed). This discression then leads onto the argument of morality, and how your actions affect others, not necessarily disobey jagex. So, what are the moral implications of PIN trading? Going onto your rick, I can understand your moral belief that people should earn things the proper way. Anyone could expect such a belief from a hard-working man who's seen the world a lot longer than most, and has a family to support. Especially when a lot of kids nowadays are spoon fed and have very little independance at a time where independance is pretty important. In one aspect, PIN trading is morally legit. One person works hard for the 5 quid, and the other works hard for the 2 million gp (unless of course they stole it, which is shifting onto other jagex rules). In that respect, they have earnt it. However, does RS work correspond to real life work? The argument in essence here is that no, it doesn't. When you get advanced in the game, a lot of the time your winnings are based on luck - and hence, you're cheating the system. You could say though that advancing in the game has got you to that stage, so its all work along the way. But as I said before, the main argument here is that real life work does not equate to work on runescape. Why not though? There are many jobs requiring the same mental capacity as runescape, such as working on a production line. Most likely its the enjoyment you get out of it, and the fact that it is just a game. What about ebay? Many people make profit on ebay simply by finding the best deals on a computer and taking them. Doesn't take much thinking, and you could pay for members with money from that? Again, its because its on the 'work' side of the line as appose to the 'game' side. When you look at it, the line may be a bit more blurred than you think. Now you could say - earning money in real life is about pure work. But is that always true? Many top business men are corrupt, they cheat and scam their way to the top. Even the people working for them - they know that their working for someone who cheats the system, and with a bit more research they could probably find out that the people at the top aren't that honest. But maybe that's going too deeply into it, they do their work and that's it. What about tradesmen? You see a LOT of workers scamming people whenever they can - be it unecessary car repairs or shoddy workmanship at someone's house. In that sense, the money people use to pay for RS could come from cheating, scamming, and ripping off. Is that morally just? No. Is it controllable? Of course not, which is why no one even bothers to think about it. You could take it from the viewpoint of fairness to other players. Someone loses 2mil, someone gains 2mil. Yes, its morally unjust, but you could argue in the whole scale of things, does it really matter when its traded over a majority? The 2mil received by the guy who sold a PIN was earned by hard work in real life. You could say in the viewpoint of someone who trades with them for something else - its cheat money, but is it? It was earned in some form or another. Again, we're wondering away from the true fairness aspect, and back into the solid RS rule. Yet, isn't the RS rule designed to make it fair for the people? Now we're in a circle. I guess the underlying aspect is someone who gets something in real life should work for it in real life, not over a game. This takes them away from playing the game, and shows them the true way of earning something. But then, if its given by the parents as appose to earned through work, its just as immoral. Should we start banning people for having generous parents? For receiving more presents than person B? Again, its blurred. Remember we're dealing with anyone from the age of 10? (there's no minimum age rule in runescape). Surely you can't expect them to start working for their money. Unless you want to bring housework into the equation. But saying that, are wg rules their to make it fair to other people, or to make them into a better person? Who the hell are we to control their life? Can't we just leave them to their own devices. So as I've tried to point it out, there's more to this than reaches the eye. Maybe I've gone way too deep, but its food for thought. There's really 2 aspects: - Jagex rules: Are we going to enforce them? In that case people should be punished for telling people their age in the game, and the like. This sounds stupid, so we need discression. That means reviewing every rule individually, and not simply saying 'follow jagex rules'. When you start picking and chosing while still saying you're following them all is lying. - Moral issues: Should we be teaching people to keep themslves to themselves and earn money the proper way? Maybe, this one's up for judgement. Should we teach them that work on RS and work in real life doesn't equalise? My personal viewpoint: I'm a laid back person, yet I'm often very moral. I completely agree with keeping PIN trading off the forums and probably the main chat, because it gives us a bad name, and it glorifies it. However, if someone in private comes up to someone who can sells PINS, I don't believe its the end of the world if the transaction occurs, there's more important things to focus on. People earn their money some way or another, it isn't for us to direct their life. Imagine this: Someone has had a very tough time in real life. They work hard but have to support someone else through no fault of their own. Maybe they've lost a loved one. Their rich on RS from previous hard work (say, fishing). They want to play RS because it is an escape from trauma of real life (don't say people don't do this, because that's utter crap. I can think of several who use runescape as an escape, and a viable one). Someone has worked hard for rl money and gives them a PIN in exchange. The transaction is not advertised yet, say, it is known about by leaders. Is it really worth it to punish them? Personally, I'd say hell no. It isn't up to us to tell that person to get another hobby, and the pin seller is merely helping them out. IF however someone is doing jack all with their life and continuously buys PINS because they're lazy, it may be worth getting involved. Sure, its a different stance from the one above, and that goes against jagex rules. In all honesty, I'd say moral discression is far more important. Rules are often made to safeguard the rulemaker. How many of us read lisence agreements from top to bottom? They are rules yet we turn a blind eye because we trust them. Jagex make the rules partly to protect people, but mostly to cover themselves (hence the new trade limit when it was revealed that large-scale RWT'ing was going on). I don't know why I wrote so damn much, I must've got carried away. I probably made a few mistakes and strayed from my original point, so feel free to question me. It would help for everyone to open their mind to the bigger picture, and not just follow things in blind trust. Obviously we already let some jagex rules slip, so its time this one is properly reviewed and a group decision reached. And during that, why not the other rules? We made this clan for people, not jagex. We need to chose the best rules and guidelines to both instruct and protect the people, isn't that what clan rules are for? A clan's got to have some slack in the system, or its just a stone cold minion of a corporate enterprise. -------------------- ~Aetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero~ "Seize the day and place no trust in tomorrow"  | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 09:24 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Wayne|Eregion2 Group: Emeritus Posts: 3087 Member No.: 156 Joined: January 25, 2008 Total Events Attended: 8 | Isn't that a bit irrelevant though? If someone has trouble IRL is it our place to decide that they "deserve" special consideration? How bad is bad? How good is good? If people who are worse off deserve special consideration that means the people who are better off have to supply it. That means that until a PERFECT equilibrium between absolutely everyone on the planet who is deemed "morally deserving" is achieved we're all morally responsible to help out everyone who is below us, which means we're all responsible for their lack and our gain. I'm not ready to accept that much misplaced responsibility in my life, I'd rather pay tuition than give all my money away to homeless people who don't "deserve" to be homeless (which means that there are people who "deserve" to be homeless, however you want to scale that one). Mostly, I get annoyed with this because I live my whole life by doing what I can with what I can without asking people for help. When I meet people who constantly ask for directions, with homework for example, it pisses me off because all they'd have to do is open the book (that's six inches from their elbow) and spend a few seconds flipping through the index (which they probably don't know exists) and a few more seconds flipping back a few pages (that they've never looked at before) and then a few minutes READING! OMG THEY HAVE TO DO WORK TO GET A GOOD GRADE NO FUCKING WAY! I think I'm going to print out little index cards (for additional irony) with bulleted instructions about how to access your textbook index and keep them in my wallet for future use. I think I went off topic there, sorry.  -------------------- | ||||||||||
Posted: September 18, 2008 09:41 pm | |||||||||||
| IRC Nickname: Lego Lamb Group: Guest Posts: 152 Member No.: 1228 Joined: July 21, 2008 Total Events Attended: 9 | very good. so u are talking about breaking rules...i cant get my head around it....u break rules with what u say and u expect other ppl that are breaking other rules to get warnings. the rules u break as just as bad as any other. tyvm lego the lamb. --------------------
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