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"You are a Wilderness Guardian. That northern wasteland; that land of blood, desolation and death is your dominion. Tonight we are going home." ~His Lordship |
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Posted: October 13, 2008 06:38 pm  | |||||
      IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129    | I came back to WG with a fresh perspective. Don't be the dictator, be the friend. I'm sure you've all noticed... less punishment... and I'm more approachable. Not nearly as intimidating as last time. I'm trying to treat you like adults. But something is going wrong. I'm being very lenient, and the current council is a very lenient council too. We're very tolerant. And what happens is people are not frightened to break the rules now. The council says "Elite+ can apply", and we get higher guardians applying. We put up a banner and a rickroll, and some members go on strike and break their activity agreements.You all agreed, when you joined, to abide by the rules and regulations of the clan. It was expected that you guys would control yourselves. What's happening is that you are breaking rules and expecting the leadership to enforce your limits. If you are breaking a rule... you assume it's the leader's job to put you back in your place. That just means you are working me harder. You know what's right and wrong... You should be able to be responsible for your own actions. Behave like adults and not kids. You know your limits, and you are deliberately crossing them because you make yourselves feel less responsible... "It's up to the council to keep the limits in place." Just NO! We've been more lenient because we expect self-control on your part. I don't WANT to be a punisher. You should be able to resolve things without the need for intervention. Intervention should come in extreme cases. I hate punishing and it makes my job suck big time. It's also really SELFISH of you to give me that burden. Control yourselves so that I don't have the obligation to control you. It comes down to laziness. Apply the limits yourselves and don't wait for the council to tell you that you have gone too far. We don't like disciplining members. It's unpleasant and unnecessary. Don't be so rude to assume it's my job to keep you in line. That's YOUR job. So start respecting the commands of the leaders instead of challenging them all the time. I know some people get a kick out of defying leadership. Gives them a power rush. Fuck off. Apologies to the people who ARE controlling themselves and not leaving discipline up to the leadership. --------------------  | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:41 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Mickey Group: Emeritus Posts: 5305 Member No.: 48 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 282 | Ok. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:45 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: leecable Group: Banned Posts: 1938 Member No.: 410 Joined: April 1, 2008 Total Events Attended: 178 | I know this is directed it me, and I am sorry. I didnt mean for it to come out so rudely, i was just angry at the fact that it didnt seem like anyone was listening. But i only ment for it to be a suggestion. I just see it like that some people have rules and others dont. If your likes by someone with power, you can do what ever you want. Take yesterday for example, Crucio joined the lobby. One of our H-ops, sat there and started to have a full blown convosation with someone that is banned from WG. He is in our Hall of Shame. I then said something about it, and nothing was done. All i got was, 'whats he doing wrong'. I then told another H-op, and they booted him. And he kept ban evading. I really am sorry if I caused offence. Anyone has a problem with me, pm me pl0x. Dont bring it into this thread. --------------------    | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:48 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Mistah_Vince Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2235 Member No.: 233 Joined: February 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 85 | I'm telling you now, the reason I applied for Council even though I'm Higher is because I've been waiting for months for the Elections with the mindset that I was going to try and apply. And then out of nowhere you decide that it's going to be Elite+ when the last one was Higher+. So, I kept with my old mindset and still applied. I'm sorry, but still.  --------------------   | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:51 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 | It's directed at more than half of WG, not just you Lee. It's directed at the people that start flaming each other in the lobby, and the people that deliberately don't sign up for wars, etc... I could get the same result two ways... OPTION A Slave driver. If someone steps out of line I could punish... WG is a miserable place, and I become intimidating... more importantly I get overworked because I assume the responsibility of keeping the order... every member's behaviour is my responsibility... but everyone gets along and follows the rules OPTION B Freedom. The individual controls him or herself, because they themselves are responsible. The leadership doesn't punish as much because its not up to them to control every member, and we can spend our leadership tiem on other things... and everyone can still get along and follow the rules. I know which option I prefer. EDIT: Vince, a broken rule is a broken rule. You could have spoken to the leadership in PM and delivered a case as to why you think higher guardians could apply. But you just consciously broke our rule and did what you wanted. As a result of your actions and others, a flame war has started and I've had to cancel the election. Why should it ever have come to that? "I'm sorry, but still" what the fuck... You're not sorry. You totally did it the wrong way and you're still with the mentality "if I'm not getting punished then its ok"... Do I really have to give you a warning level in order for you to know its not OK? I don't think either of us want that. You should, as an adult, know its not ok to just bluntly disrespect the rules. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:53 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Dilz Group: Banned Posts: 1403 Member No.: 973 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 151 | Well you cant be too leniant because people will feel they can get away with things. A little punishment here and there is enough, like Groes suspension --------------------  LOLPNS  Perm banned. | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:56 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 |
You neglected the point of the entire post. Take responsibility for yourself. Ideally I shouldn't have to take on a punisher role. You are assuming people need to be punished in order to know that what they did was unacceptable. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:57 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: leecable Group: Banned Posts: 1938 Member No.: 410 Joined: April 1, 2008 Total Events Attended: 178 | Ok. Well im prefering option C OPTION C Everyone obeys the rules, people who step out of line are punished. Especially when they deliberately do it. Would increase the respect for the leadership, in the majority of the clan, and hopefully the guys that are punished realise there mistake and dont do it again. If they are that stubborn, and dont want to learn, then they know where the door is. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:58 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Mistah_Vince Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2235 Member No.: 233 Joined: February 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 85 |
Actually Gene, I did bring it up to Evil in a PM and he said he'd talk to you about it. But honestly, I was too impatient to wait. And the flame war didn't start because Higher Guardians applied, it started for other reasons. (Unless we're thinking of a different flame war?) And I guess you're right. I'm not sorry. I just felt it was the right thing to post that. I know what I did was wrong, but I didn't care. And actually, I expected punishment. And you can give me a warning level if you wish, but I still won't regret it. It's the kind of person I am. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 06:58 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dilz Group: Banned Posts: 1403 Member No.: 973 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 151 |
Of course its up to the person to sort themselves out. However some people step out of line and are unable to do so? So what do you do then? Let them be? Take for instance Groe...he continually flamed you but didnt stop? Do you wait till he realises hes doing no good for himself, or intervene? Your call -------------------- LOLPNS Perm banned. | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:01 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 |
You're in a different mindset to me. There shouldn't be the expectation that punishment will come at all. You are still relying on punishments as an indicator of what you can and can't do. It's putting responsibility on the council which is unneeded. There is no option C. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:02 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | /me decides to stay out of this conversation/debate....for now. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:04 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 |
Thank you. That's really what I wanted to hear. I appreciate your honesty. That thinking is the sort of problem we have. When people expect punishment... then they are really thinking "Ok, let the council set my limits and take that responsibility off my shoulders." That's what needs to change. EDIT: Dilz, in my first post, I said the council should intervene in extreme cases... Of course we can't be perfect. We all make mistakes from time to time, even the rule enforcers. If something goes wrong of course the council can step in... but its happening too often. We shouldn't be this involved in discipline. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:05 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: leecable Group: Banned Posts: 1938 Member No.: 410 Joined: April 1, 2008 Total Events Attended: 178 |
But is that not the idea of rules? People who break rules, should be punished? I wish you were in the british goverment tbh, because I could go around and steal from banks, and because i knew what I had done was wrong, then im safe. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:08 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dilz Group: Banned Posts: 1403 Member No.: 973 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 151 |
Yeah, we are on same wavelength now. Its up to us to sort ourselves out, but the council or any other member should perhaps have a quick word to stop stuff from escalating. Or somone to be the bigger person and dont reply or flame? -------------------- LOLPNS Perm banned. | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:08 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 |
That is not what I'm saying at all. It's your obligation to have limits, not ours. Of course, if you break a rule from now on you'll have to be punished. But it is really unfair to make us punish you. That gives us work and it also liberates you from having your own moral compass... You are just acting according to what you can get away with. EDIT: Dilz you are getting closer. Try to eliminate the council from the equation and leave them as a last resort. You can either choose to do things according to whether you get punished or not... which makes the council have to work harder, or you can do thins according to your own knowledge of the rules without the concept of punishment. I can't explain it very well, partly because its 3:00am. Goodnight. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:13 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dilz Group: Banned Posts: 1403 Member No.: 973 Joined: June 23, 2008 Total Events Attended: 151 | Ok, night then. Maybe add a responsibility to members or higher+ to stop this stuff from happening? That way council wont need to intervene, if not a rule already. But I know your gonna say as a member we are obliged to do so anyway -------------------- LOLPNS Perm banned. | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:20 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Gorgemaster Group: Elite Guardian Posts: 9840 Member No.: 3 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 540 | I 100% agree. It's disgusting seeing you Gene and the council striving so hard to make WG a better place. The staff put in so many hours to WG as do many other members and there is rarely gratitude shown and people just try to make you feel bad... Buck up guys.... Everyone deserves better... --------------------    | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:28 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Pazenon Group: Emeritus Posts: 1477 Member No.: 33 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 79 | You should do what you think is right as a leader Eugene. Don't let stuff like this get to you. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:30 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | I guess my whole problem is: What good are rules if nobody is going to enforce them? Surely, you can't imply that we should enforce them ourselves, now are you? I believe that's what you're saying...to kind of monitor our own actions to ensure we're not breaking rules, however, I've given up trying to think like you. A little more clarification when you're not so tired would be nice. Your post could be construed a few different ways and I guess I'm a little confused as to what meaning you're trying to achieve. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:39 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: His Lordship Group: Founder Posts: 6029 Member No.: 1 Joined: December 26, 2007 Total Events Attended: 129 | I have a better explanation for it now. Gonna do it quickly before I sleep. It is in human nature to push our limits so we can do more.  The red circle is our limits. Inside is what we can do. Outside is what we can't. We are always pushing at the edge of our limits to see if there is something new we can do. For example... will we be able to get away with flaming? So we'll try it and see. If there is a force that pushes back, then we know our limit. If a council member punishes us for flaming, we know we can't flame. If they don't, we know we can. So what I'm asking is for members to stop relying on council to push their limits back. Push back yourselves. It's very tiring for us to be keeping you all in check. Use some self restraint and stop trying to get away with more. It might start as posting in something to flame bait, and it could move onto forum flaming, then IRC flaming and it could escalate if it goes unchecked. Please don't rely on the council to push you back. We will, but we'd prefer if you did it yourself. It makes things much easier. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 07:48 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Rick Hamm Group: Ex-Member Posts: 573 Member No.: 1214 Joined: July 14, 2008 Total Events Attended: 6 | All simple and good Gene...in a perfect world. Need I remind you that you're dealing with alot of kids from alot of different cultures? This is the melting pot of the entire RS world...each clan is. It will never be perfect and to think that this step, the one that you're taking, is going to bring it closer, is being a little naive, if I may be so bold. I don't know what the answer is to be quite honest, but allowing people to control themselves and their actions is hardly the way to go. Granted, they SHOULD be doing these things as a part of growing up in the real world, however, as I said, there are differences in each person of this clan. Bob may have been breastfed til he was 10...who knows, while Tim had to fend for himself because his parents were never around. You have to take each person's history and delve into the recesses in order to find out if they're even CAPABLE of knowing between what's wrong and right, and THEN get them to cease doing it. For all we know, this person has ADD or Torrettes or something. People always need others to keep them in check. This is no different and quite possibly even moreso in this realm. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 08:29 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Karlfischer Group: Ex-Member Posts: 664 Member No.: 124 Joined: January 12, 2008 Total Events Attended: 55 | The point is, if you want a friendly, respectful, and relatively flame free community, we as members need to take some responsibility to make WG that place. The council can treat some of the symptoms by making more rules, but the real problem is that people are acting like children who need their leaders to tell them right from wrong. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 08:31 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: [Randy] Group: Raid Leader Posts: 5065 Member No.: 16 Joined: December 29, 2007 Total Events Attended: 499 | Rules are rules. Some people like to think "rules are meant to be broken," but that only applies on where it's allowed. If I eat a cookie before dinner without my mom knowing it doesn't matter, I may have broken a rule, but it affects no one but myself. However, if you break a rule like in the examples this thread is based upon, it should be enforced and dealt with. Affecting others by breaking rules is the one thing that's serious, affecting yourself is up to your discretion if you plan on facing the consequences. As Lordy said, punishment is bothersom. No one likes to be the bad guy, because in the end, everyone's here to have fun. Now as to what Rick said, about how everyone's different, it's true. Although we like to think that everyone should follow the rules, sometimes they can't. If this is ever the case, I believe the rules should be bended slightly to the leadership's discretion, protecting the good of all of us. So in conclusion, we need to enforce the rules, but have a disclaimer at the end explaining that the leadership has the final word. --------------------   | ||||
Posted: October 13, 2008 10:57 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Samurai-JM Group: Emeritus Posts: 3204 Member No.: 117 Joined: January 11, 2008 Total Events Attended: 8 |
I'm somewhere over there > -------------------- -=}¤- Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici -¤{=-  W I N N I N G | ||||
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