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"You are a Wilderness Guardian. That northern wasteland; that land of blood, desolation and death is your dominion. Tonight we are going home." ~His Lordship |
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Posted: November 16, 2008 04:13 pm  | |||||
      IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137    | I was just talking in the IRC about how I think this whole new clan world is pretty pathetic. We talk about how each war is important, and how they're all crucial, but they really aren't. Every week, there is a DF vs. VR, Cor vs. VR, EoS vs. DF topic. Every week VR will beat DF, and DF will beat VR, likewise with Cor and EoS. Wars and PKRIs almost have no impact. To really change something, you'd have to have wars every weekend, and some during the weekday and then win pretty much all of them to show something. There is so much of this "we had a bad night," stuff going around that a loss is practically meaningless because they're so common. Wins are the same. "We dominated," one night becomes "We had bad organization," the next night. When wars come around sure at the time it's like "Oh wow, nice win," but that doesn't really mean anything anymore. We have all this talk about supporting the clan, and giving something to the clan. What about making every war like that. Give some meaning to every war. What I'm talking about is making all, or a majority of our wars RAW declarations. We were the first to make a RAW declaration, let's start something new. Think back to when full-out wars were uncommon. When DS beat DI it was HUGE. There was so much going on about that war. Think back to when people made their "Top 10 Clans" list, as a reason for dropping a clan to a lower spot, they'd site a single loss to a clan from a full-out war. Sure PKRIs were taken into account, but that was more of an activity thing and somewhat dominance. Wars held so much weight, and now they're like candies. "Oh let's declare on these guys, we can take them," and then if we lose, we regroup for a few days and then it's alright. Everyone forgets about it. It blends in because there are multiple full-outs going on at once. Back then, when a full-out was going to happen, everyone talked about it (granted declarations were made public). They were important - really important. We just won a RAW war, and pulled 49 people. Think back to when we were in a war, even though people knew we weren't the powerhouse clan in terms of levels or fighting capability, we had sheer numbers. People would say "*opponent*, has better organization and higher levels, but WG will pull at least 100, maybe 150 people to this war and that alone will get them the win." We had that image of being that big, now people are congratulating us on 49 people...49. Let's show our dedication. Let's make every war REALLY matter. We make every war RAW, it has an impact on the clan. If people really care, they'll show. The numbers will tell all. I don't think this idea of making wars 'rarer' is going to work the way things are now, because if there isn't any real weight on the war, people won't be inclined to come. I'm not saying if it's RAW they will, but I think it's worth a shot. Knowing your clan's name is on the line is incentive for me. If I'm just at home, I'd me more inclined to stay up for a RAW war than for one that is 'important' for nothing more than the few pages of posts it might get. Part 2 Also, I think we should try to vary the way our wars are. I know the official RAW rules state that the defending clan gets choice on the rules, but we should try as hard as we can to get fights back to using all styles of combat. I know it's a lot harder, but we're pretty got in P2P, and since there it's all styles we should be slightly more capable than clans who don't P2P all that often. The whole Melee with binds thing in the center boundaries is really quite boring. I mean, this is it basically: 1. Charge (if attacking), Wait (if defending) 2. Pile and Bind 2.a Hybrid (includes any switching in and out of robes) 3. Tank 3.a Hugging 3.b Dragging 4. Death That is it *in a nutshell*. I know the Classic map with the center boundaries is the main RAW map, but if both clans agree to a different map, it's alright. So let's start using different maps. Lets use GDZ, Turrets, whatever, let's just change it up. Just a suggestion, make constructive criticism. It does nobody any good to just list the disadvantages of this idea without providing something that could fill in the holes. If you think something won't work, point it out, then provide a way to fix it. If you're unsure, say so because "Hey, I don think *insert point here* would work, but I'm just not sure how to fix it so that it would work," is better than saying "Hey, *insert point here* doesn't work." --------------------   | ||||
Posted: November 16, 2008 05:36 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Flippie||Afk Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1708 Member No.: 55 Joined: December 31, 2007 Total Events Attended: 0 | Agreed with most of this. True: The wars in CWA are Boring. We should get some variation, other maps, all styles allowed.. Or why not in PvP, like the old days.
Thats another good point you made. Pulling 49 people out of 89 isn't good, it's better compared to our last wars tho. Get this activity check going guys.. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/ZitherBand Support my Friends!  | ||||
Posted: November 16, 2008 05:37 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Rage|Mike Group: Clan Friend Posts: 1948 Member No.: 1238 Joined: July 29, 2008 Total Events Attended: 132 | I do agree with ya on that, we get so few wars and rarely RAW ones, except instead of making more wars, I believe we could do some safe PKRI's (Of course, we shouldn't forget about dangerous ones too!) The reason behind that is well..I'm sure some people including me have gotten bored from the usual warring (As you said, it's always the same), PKRI's would give a better variety. That doesn't mean we totally forget about wars though, we can war certain clans with Range allowed or all styles and such. --------------------  MSN: [email protected] IRC: Rage|Mike at SwiftIRC and SeersIRC Drop me a comment, click to view my RSC profile! Proud to be ex-Wilderness Guardian.  | ||||
Posted: November 17, 2008 12:48 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 | I might train range to lvl 80 if we do change this. I actually enjoyed ranging the one time I got to do that at a war in cwa. Is the number of members down from when we had better attendance in the past? If we had 200 members and only 100 show up then this is showing us we are still about the same on war activity in percentage. I think recruiting is going to be very important to get that percentage up. I went back yesterday in the forum and was reading some stuff from April 08 that sounds like about the same issues as we still have now. --------------------  Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~  | ||||
Posted: November 17, 2008 01:24 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 | Rachel, I'm talking about May '05. We had a huge ML, and when war time came around the entire clan was energized. I don't remember exactly what it was like, but our turnouts to wars were great. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: November 17, 2008 05:14 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Pazenon Group: Emeritus Posts: 1477 Member No.: 33 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 79 | Wars used to have a larger impact on the clan world than PKRIs did, and now, it's just the other way around. Just like how the focus was mainly on full out wars back then, the focus *now* should be aimed at PKRIs instead. I know how WG is a warring clan more than it is a PKRI clan, and that we don't have the required amount of members to do PKRIs on a large scale, and that the majority of WG are not prepared to keep returning and losing rune... but really, we need to set some standards related to this issue. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: November 18, 2008 01:04 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: rachellove Group: Council Posts: 6955 Member No.: 173 Joined: January 31, 2008 Total Events Attended: 305 |
I don't have access to anything that far back to read. That time would be before Jagex changed things though. Do we have the option to train with each other in pvp worlds wearing like maybe iron or steel or something? Everyone could afford less expensive armor. It would maybe be good training option. My thinking is maybe if people feel more ready they will be willing to do it more. Muggers does his training thing maybe one of the other raid leaders would be willing to try this. -------------------- Thank you Garrett and Dallar. “The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.” ~~Colin Powell ~~ | ||||
Posted: November 18, 2008 01:47 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Colin Group: Ex-Member Posts: 2039 Member No.: 68 Joined: December 31, 2007 Total Events Attended: 69 | I agree with pretty much all of that. Remember when we pulled 145 people to a P2P war against DOA. The second DOA war that is. A PAY TO PLAY WAR. Now we pull 45 people to a f2p war for ranks and people are like "WOW NICE PULL WG#  "I miss the days when people went to wars because they were fun, not because they were scared of being punished if they didn't go. We should start warring in the wild again. --------------------  Proud WG member from January 2006 - Fall 2009 | ||||
Posted: November 18, 2008 08:33 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 |
I understand that you don't feel prepared for strings of wars that are all carrying weight. It is pretty nerve-racking when you know your performance really does matter, but then doesn't that fear also make you want to be better? Not necessarily in the sense of being more combat oriented yourself, but better in that given the stats you've got, you're able to tank better, or have mastered the art of hybridding and then switching to Rune before the enemy can attack you in your robes. Mugger's training sessions are helpful - only if people go. Also, they're WAY to controlled. In those sessions, you know when you're going to be attacked, when you should pray, when you should do whatever it is that is being worked on. In real wars, the enemy doesn't give you a memo stating when you're going to be piled - they just do it (please don't take this as an insult, I just have to be blunt so others actually understand what I'm getting at). You as a player have to know when to recognize you're being attacked, know if you should put armor on first or pray. Know how to efficiently switch between robes and armor, and then armor and dragonhide when trying to get away. It's not the same. It's hard to 'train' someone in the art of RS Warfare. You can do it the way Mugger does, but it's far to simple. It effectively gets the point across, but tanking a group of 10 people you know are about to attack you isn't all that great. You could then just use wars, but again, they're so hectic, and the people who make mistakes won't know what it is they're doing wrong and will just do the same thing over and over. We could do more intra-clan wars with the FI leaders off-limits so they can provide feedback to their opposing 'clan' stating who did what, why certain people were piled. If those people who were piled were doing what they should. Stuff like that. My thinking is, that people who are in WG want WG to be known. They want WG to succeed. They don't go to wars now because they also know that a single win in the current system means practically nothing. It would have to be an amazing win for it to be noticed (just think of us beating DF in F2P, not going to happen but if it did, it would be a shock). So we can beat clans that are around our capability, but 2-3 wins would be nice, some people would say "nice string of wins you go there," but that doesn't change anything, we'd still be #16 RAW. If we lost, it would also not change anything. So people who know that even when we say every war is 'crucial' and 'important', they know it really isn't in terms of standings in the clan world. What they do know is RAW is important because that is the official ranking. You win a fight there, you move up, and if you lose you move down. Each fight has an effect on the clan's warring status, just like back in '05 when a single full-out determined whether or not you made the Top 20, or even Top 10 clan listing. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: November 18, 2008 09:06 am | |||||
| IRC Nickname: pminogue Group: Ex-Member Posts: 277 Member No.: 108 Joined: January 5, 2008 Total Events Attended: 50 | I totally agree with most of it, especially with warring with all 3 styles of combat again. To be rightly honest, The combat triangle will most definitely give us a better, and far more interesting war and/or pkri/raid. =) --------------------  | ||||
Posted: November 19, 2008 04:10 pm | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Mr Glennfase Group: Emeritus Posts: 3064 Member No.: 39 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 220 | The problem is that most WG aren't commited to something for a PKRI. We can't even hold 25% of our kids in a SAFE PKRI for 60 Minutes. How can we expect to improve when no one can sit down and say "fuck it, i'm going to help my clan win this war NO MATTER WHAT!" It just isn't there. It seems like a lot in this clan give their minimalist effort. They attend a big war, then skip raids, skilling events, and community events. Maybe I have to change the definition of a PKRI for us. You are absolutely prohibited from leaving a PKRI without a specific acknowledgment from a Raid Leader or other Tertiary+. An example is the MoD PKRI. We started with about 8 more than them. By the end of the war, we had like 20 to their 40. Seriously. How can 60% of us LEAVE OUR CLAN. Its a godamn safe pkri. There is no rune loss whatsoever. Clans like DF and Cor and TT do 12 PKRI's and dangerous. Their leaders lose on a good day 60 rune sets EASY. Probably much more, likely. An all styles sounds very interesting. Its something different with a kick. KO's will be much more prominent. The problem? A great number of WG are consistently ko'd. Its the truth. I'd say, on average about 1/3 of us get completely ko'd against a clan with similar numbers, unless its like a 15 v 15. Yes tanking can be a bitch, but its an acquired skill. P2P. I've been working on getting a P2P war. I am not sure what exactly it will be, but I'm working on it! -------------------- That's Mr. Glennfase to you. Ex-Warlord/Council  | ||||
Posted: November 19, 2008 05:31 pm | |||||
| IRC Nickname: Dnovelta Group: Emeritus Posts: 2750 Member No.: 130 Joined: January 20, 2008 Total Events Attended: 137 |
Good to know you've taken a look at this, means a lot. First, I totally understand what you're saying. There are lots of members in WG right now that just don't care. Which is why I made the proposition to make all wars RAW so that each one has an impact on the clan (that's different since right now we're talking about PKRIs). The thing is, PKRIs have little to no effect either. I mean, DF vs. Cor happens every week. One week DF wins, the next Cor wins and it's back and forth all the time. Not a single fight really affects their standings. Sure, they'll get some recognition for a few days. Then the next big PKRI will come around and people will forget about that DF vs. Cor. The following week, maybe Cor will win instead of DF, then they'll bring back the old PKRI, but still there is no repercussion for their loss. That system of wins and losses not really having any effect is probably one factor contributing to people's lack of enthusiasm to go to PKRIs, raids, wars and other combat related events. I mean, not to be mean to Raid Leaders and Council, but literally every single war we fight is 'crucial', or 'important'. I'm not saying they're not, but it doesn't sound great when every single one is of the same importance. And then, if we lose...we shrug it off. Where is the importance? We don't get any real feedback. We get general feedback like "We weren't binding," or "We weren't tanking," but seriously, we would all know that already. I'm talking about calling people out, "David, I saw you put your Rune on before your Prayer - DO NOT DO THAT!" or "Good job tanking David - everyone should go watch the video of the war and see what David does when he got piled." Things like that, I think would really help. I know it would be hard for you to pick out those details while trying to lead, but if you can I think it would be very useful for us. Also, for most people, I don't think it's about the money - it's the time. They want to play RS their way when they get the chance. I'm not going to go into this because I know where this path goes. I just saw your all styles war, nice job on taking action quickly. Like the effort. As far as P2P goes, no need to rush into it. I say we do more work on all styles F2P because P2P is always all styles, and we can't expect to be ready for that when we can't handle Adamant Arrows being fired from Maple Shortbows and Green D'hide with Fire Blasts and Rune Scimitars as backup. When the P2P version of that fight would consist of Dragon Scimitars, Whips, Barrages, Blitzes, C'bows, D'bows, GSwords. I mean, no comparison really. Take it slow. We can't just run into P2P. -------------------- | ||||
Posted: November 23, 2008 09:59 am | |||||
 IRC Nickname: Matt|Multi Group: Emeritus Posts: 668 Member No.: 49 Joined: December 30, 2007 Total Events Attended: 12 | Almost completely off topic, but does anyone else remember Elias' war prep vids? Lmfao those were great. In all honesty though, I blame Jagex for the deterioration (At least as I see it) of the clan world. Back before the Wilderness changed, clans would go HUNT (remember that, we'll come back to it later) each other and run-ins would usually be determined by who got the jump on the other clan and so didn't carry much meaning. Wars were used as a diplomatic measure much like in today's world (Rune Outlaws wars anyone?) as much as they were to show strength. Wars used to be HUGE deals, announced weeks in advance, with strategies planned ahead of time and adjusted for the individual strengths and weaknesses of the opposition. Some of the bigger wars would be talked about for weeks both before and after the actual fight. Nowadays, PKRIs happen all the time, there's no hunting (Ah, see, told ya, back to that point) involved. Typical strategy has devolved from "Hmm, is that just a low level exploring, or an enemy scout? What clan could he be from? Could we take them if they attacked us? What's the strategy if that happens?" to "Hey, there's a bunch of guys standing over there, let's go hit 'em with swords!" (Not meant as an insult to raid leaders or anything, just sayin'). Clans can just walk into the arena and throw themselves against the first opponent, no planning involved; or they can manipulate the arena rules to their own advantage to where they cannot be broken. Modern wars however, take a lot more planning and time to achieve basically the same results, and it's so ridiculously easy to break the agreed-upon rules and get away with it too. So, PKRIs now achieve the same thing wars used to achieve, with a lot less effort and risk involved. TL;DR version: I blame Jagex. Old clan world fighting style (War heavy) was awesome (sometimes!) and new fighting style (PKRIs) sucks donkey balls. Also, Glenn sucks.  I have absolutely no clue why I posted this, just felt like saying it. -------------------- Born at sea, baptized in blood your fame will never die. Your Division is one of the best if not the best division in the history of American arms -Gen George S Patton on the 45th Infantry Division  | ||||
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