A woman's right to choose

Originally posted by Laskuraska of Dragon Cave Forums

I don't support abortion (Except extreme cases, such as rape which was mentioned). However various forms of birth control I feel are acceptable.

Okay....first of all, I think politics should be avoided on forums
because its almost impossible to discuss without making both
sides upset.

Having said this, I wish the writers of the proposed bill had
the misfortune of being pregnant and carrying to term a fetus
that has a lethel anomaly, only to watch it die at birth.

There is a place for abortion in our society. Anyone who thinks
that it is an easy decision for a woman to abort her child, for
any reason, is misinformed.

How many of you actually read the bill? It is rather... sickening.

txtawkin, where else would this be discussed if not forums? I like bringing up something like this that I find very important with people who's opinions I generally respect. And if politics were banned from these forums, then no one could mention Obama either... (There's a few topics on politics already)

I only skimmed it but all I have to say is abortion is wrong no matter what.

It said any form of birth control, would that include condoms now?

I'm all for abortion and a woman's(or anyone's) right to choose. If anyone really wants to get me started as to why (I'm sick and don't feel like typing up my hundred reasons right now), just post something stupid and I'll get back to you. Lol

Sith: Idiot.

For sooth: Yes. Condoms are a form of birth control.

I read as much of the bill as I could stomach tbh. And the reason
that discussing things like this on forums is a bad idea,
is that you almost never persuade anyone to think differently than they
already do in these matters. The end result of these discussions is usually
anger and hurt feelings, (except for the small group that rly doesn't have any
opinion either way).

Politics is kinda like religion, people are usually influenced by
their upbringing and their life experiences, not so much by other
ppl's opinions.

And my life experience is of being the person who has to break
the news to the parent/parents that their unborn child has a
condition that is incompatible with life. I don't want to also have
to know that the choice for an elective abortion has been taken
away from them along with all their hopes and dreams for that
child.

Sorry to be so grim but this is a subject that stirs me to my core.

I also agree with topics about politics and religion should not be brought up here. Causes a lot of drama.

Although I do have fun dishing out the pain with my searing logic, fiery intellect, and sharp articulation.

Collin, how am I an idiot?

Woman's business and men should stay out.

I think these discussions are valuable, not really in a way to try and persuade other people to your point of view, but to understand what other people believe and why.

Reading the bill, I'll post back later.

// edit //

Harsh language. I don't imagine this has any serious chance of going through, just because it's so adamantly "pro-life" and as Kathy said, people are very much more likely to have made their minds up on these sorts of issues long before they come up in actual debate. And that includes politicians who won't want to touch that piece of paper with a 50-ft. pole.

That always bothered me, about why elected officials never have an original thought they only try and do what they can to "appease" who elected them. From one point of view that's great, they're being representative. From the other side though, minority or fringe groups get excluded. So, what's up with "pro-life" and "pro-choice" and this absolutely convoluted moral dilemma.

Idealistically, I'm a "pro-life" advocate. I believe that two people have the choice to have sex, and should therefore be prepared to face any consequence by doing so. The thing about ideals, though, is they're comfortably removed from the actual issue. In the event of rape, that choice doesn't exist. However, from my own personal point of view, abortion should not be allowed in any case where the mother and child are sufficiently healthy.

Is that harsh? It's because I believe, emphatically, that from the instant of conception each child is a living human being. I'm not particularly concerned about when the fetus becomes an official entity separate from its mother, because the fetus (if healthy and external action notwithstanding) has every probability of BECOMING that human being even if it technically isn't one yet.

The term fetus is also interesting. To it's origins, the word literally means the action of a living being being still in the womb of it's mother. If external action is not taken (aka, an abortion performed) then there will be a child, a human being. In the case of medical emergencies, I believe the mother's life should come first, just like how a younger heart-transplant recipient is often be placed before an older one.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. From my perspective abortion totes itself as being an escape, either from an unwanted child or unwanted memories of how that child came to be. I'm sure there's an aspect of this specific argument I'm not getting, I can usually feel a twinge when I'm about to say something off the mark. But I'll let it be said so it can be replied to and maybe I'll learn from it.

About men not having a place in these discussions, I also disagree. Do you have to be Jewish to be outraged about the Holocaust, or an African American to have a perspective on Malcolm X? If a "Right to Choose" really does exist, then I imagine the greater authority would be on the woman's side. But it's only fair to let us have our say as well.

In a nutshell, I'm "pro-life" and believe that all human life is sacred unless forfeit. Would I be willing to say that to the face of a rape victim who wants an abortion? I don't know. I tried to put myself in that situation mentally and felt like I had to vomit. But is that an ethical argument? I don't know that either. We've created a society of justifications, where if one person should have the choice to do something then as does everyone.

I believe this is wrong. There are situations where unique actions should be taken, and maybe that involves rape victims who want to have an abortion. But should that be extended to every person in the United States? Then again, is an unwanted child from a rape any different of a situation than an unwanted child from consensual sex?

In different situations, both have the potential to cause extraordinary psychological harm. Would that be different if our society intuitively REFUSED abortions? If we didn't even think of it as a choice to begin with then we would find other means to deal with our pain and I'd argue we wouldn't be any worse off for it. In fact, with all the risks and additional psychological effects of having an abortion, it would probably be healthier and safer if they were excommunicated from our cultural hegemony.

But they won't be. The whole concept of a cultural hegemony is the set of shared believes by the majority of the members of a culture, and you can't just flip that on its head because you'd like to. That's a measure for idealists and hypothetical eventualities not a serious discussion. But according to my own argument, a fetus should be treated as a human being. Is there any justification for killing one person at the behest of another? Or am I on the wrong track entirely?

To answer your first question Aaron: Yes. Everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.

Sith: Why should a woman have to go through 9 months of torture and the pain of child birth if you could just terminate the few cells that are only a potential human. 9 months, remembering every time she looked at herself in the mirror, how the baby inside her was conceived. The thing isn't alive. It's just a cluster of cells leeching off of the woman's body. What if the baby was going to die and if the woman had it, she would die as well?

Honestly, what do you care what other people do with their lives? It is only effecting themselves. Who fucking cares? Stop telling people how to live their lives you Nazi bastards. Why do you feel the need to control what other people do, even though it doesn't effect you?

I edited my first post with my reply.

The Nazi gesture is interesting in its own right, since most "pro-life" people consider abortion to be genocide. Why would those nine months be full of torture and pain? Certainly pegnancy isn't always comfortable, but people get through it well enough. So your argument is that an UNWANTED pregnancy is, by definition, torture and pain.

So every time that something happens that we'd rather not happen, we're being tortured and pained? I suppose that's valid. But as to how it effects me, don't jump to conclusions. The concept of murder is the event of intentionally precluding another person's life. How is that different from an abortion, where a life is ended before it can begin? If I was immortal and not in danger of being murdered, should I not care about the threat to other human life?

Eregion, quite simply...it's not a person yet, whether you would like to believe so or not. This clump of cells does not think, feel, breathe and has no heart beat. What part of that makes you think it's alive?

And if that doesn't satisfy you(which it won't because religious nuts are, well...nuts), I approve of abortion simply because I hate people. And babies. I say kill 'em all before they're even born.

Karl: I was just kidding about the idiot thing. Lol...but you brought up a good point that I forgot about. Whether abortion is legal or not, people will still have them. And that usually means in back alleys with "doctors" or by themselves at home. Either way, it's very dangerous and can seriously harm the woman. It's better they get proper abortion care at an established medical residence than risk killing themselves by doing it unprofessionally.

interesting.

so when do sperm and an egg become a human.

i think everyone should have a choice about whether to abort their baby in the first 3 months.

especially if it was conceived from rape.

absolute joke that bill is.

i will also remind people that they can speak their mind, but dont flame others on what they say.

Kinda wondering why Colin said these types of topics bring up controversy and then going right along and calling someone an idiot for having a different opinion. Can't say I disagree with you Colin, but making another person feeling bad about themselves doesn't make you any better of a person.




Brandon

all i see is people saying idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot


that is your idea of discussion?

Yeah, I get to settle for religious nut. Much more soothing to the ego.

I'll keep an eye on this, if it gets anywhere worth replying to I'll be in touch.

There is also another part that many of you are overlooking. Aaron and I had a long conversation about this.

What happens to the child if the mother doesn't want it?

• Adoption
• Foster System
• Abandonment

Adoption is a good choice, but how many of these children linger in the system for years with the paperwork *almost* done, being denied on a minor technicality?

The foster system is a piece of shit. The caseworkers or child advocates are so overloaded, that the children do not get the help they need.

Abandonment is horrible.


If the mother decides to keep the child...

Does she have a good job that won't discriminate on her because she is a parent? Is she married? Is she employed at a low income job and need financial assistance? Will the mother be on state funded medical insurance or welfare?

If she's well off, that's all the better for her and the kid. But what about those who go on welfare? That money for health and housing and food comes from some where. The mother and the child become a burden on society.

What about the father? If the mother goes on welfare, he has to pay it back for the period of time that she is on it. When child support is ordered (and it will be if the mother is on welfare), his income is rated and he is told to pay a certain amount, regardless of visitation rights. That is controlled by another part of the court.

Oh, and all these legal proceedings cost money too. And that comes from the tax payers too.


The bill also says that chemical forms of birth control may or may not be considered as a form of birth control. They can't prove it one way or the other at this time. That means that if they can find proof that it does prevent a fertilized egg from developing into a fetus, it will be considered abortion as well.
Chemical forms of birth control include (but are not limited to) any sort of pill, Depoprovera (the shot), any of the implants that release long term medication into the woman's body. I do not believe spermicides are included in this, but I may be wrong.

I may be going over some of the things that Karl has said. But he's also right. If abortion is outlawed, women will find a way to have it done, no matter the risks. Back alley clinics, trying to do it themselves, any number of ways. An animal with its foot caught in a trap will literally chew its foot off to escape. What would a thinking person do? Women in that situation who feel the abortion is the best option or that they cannot bring a child into this world will suffer because of it.

There is much more to this than simply saying that abortion is wrong. Please think about the long term repercussions of an unwanted child as well as the short term repercussions of terminating a pregnancy.

~

Sith, regarding a child of incest.
With the close genetics, the problems of a (my apologies for putting this bluntly) retarded child or deformed child are increased quite a bit. Yes, inbreeding is done with animals and fish, and is actually quite common in fish breeding. But the biggest difference with non-intelligent creatures, is that they will let the weak die. Because multiple births are (for most animals/birds/fish w/e) the norm for them, even if one or two dies, there are still others to continue on the species. With humans, we tend to cherish every one and assist them to live even if it brings down the quality of the gene pool.

EDIT: DAMN IT LORDY YOU PUT THE FILTER ON GENE TOO?
Quality of the Elias pool.

Who ever thought of such shit would think differently if their wife/daughter or what ever was raped and became pregnant. Some people are just so far up their own asses that they don't think about anyone else.

Abortion isn't really something I've been against. It's up to YOU, what you do with it. It really shouldn't be up to anyone else whether or not the next 10 years orso of you'r life is a living hell.

Abortion is not a method of birth control....period...in my opinion.
You should take care of that before you have sex.

Having said that I am pro-life in that once a child is conceived its murder to kill it. However, there are cases where those decisions have to be made to terminate a pregnancy.
I do believe it is not my right to impose my views on others. That is up to the individual to decide what they want to do.
I can only know my own heart and not be the judge for others.

i don't have anything against women doing with their bodies what ever the f they want. I'm against abortion though, since it's not your body you're messing with anymore. It's an another human being you're killing and don't come with that crap that in the first 3 months it's not even living, it is a human being from the first second of the pregnancy.

if some1 is too dumb to dumb to have a SAFE sex they should deal with the consiquences.

edit: of course there are exceptions, like rape.

I can never make up my mind on abortion

Believe it or not...sex was meant to create life on this planet (not just to feel good).

TO ME the moment that the egg and sperm come together it is life. It will grow into a human being, to destroy that is murder.

As I said it should not be up to anyone to choose what someone else can do with their own body. It is a personal choice and I do think it should be both partners choice if possible.

no what? i'd rather not.

Women should be able to choose. Government cannot interfere. Religious freaks cannot interfere. THE END.

This is just a warning to everyone to keep the discussion civil. If it strays into anything other then reasonable discussion it'll be locked.

I believe that life is sacred as well Wayne. But I don't subscribe to the belief
that all life has value requardless of the circumstances. I think that there is
place in our society for assisted suicide. There should also be an acceptable
solution to ending the life of a fetus that is malformed and doomed to die at
birth. The parents of the child should not be made to feel like outcasts if
they made that difficult decision to terminate.

Abortion should never be taken lightly and never used as birth control, but
there is a need for it at times. There is no humane reason for the parents to
have their nightmare dragged out for an additional 4-5 months when there
is no hope. And yes, we do have the knowledge and the diagnostic tools to evaluate the chances of survival and of the quality of life if there is a chance
for survival.

Btw Karl, I think your post was very insightful.

Yeah, I guess I just hate people and want them to die before they are even born. I'm just evil.