Raid Leader Apps.

And a big what the fuck....

I agree completely.
You may say my opinion is biased, but I know the direction that I need to go in to achieve what is best for WG, so it actually isn't biased at all.

I am sure we all know of the member(s) that fit(s) the attributes of a raid leader completely, and who benefits from the lowering of the requirements.

One simple question that I want a completely honest answer from council about, was this on purpose?

Huh?
Oh. I dont know who you're referring to....
But why does it matter? If a trial guardian shows true leadership ability then why not tbh.... we can watch the trial leaders like a hawk for the duration of their trial periods and then make an informed decision.
Also - you forget that I never graduated (80% sure) ... I just went straight from Trial Guardian ---> Skills Leader back in the day!

You don't have to censor my name

You can't say that being promoted to Raid Leader is easier then mentorship just because the requirements for this particular promotion are lower.

Its not like I made the decision lightly. I think he has a pretty decent chance, and he has shown himself to be resourceful in the past. I do notice his short time in WG. However, If someone performs well, they will get the rank. I don't think something as small as time served in WG dictates anything about how capable someone is.

John has shown himself to be a capable leader in both WG and TBE. However, I will treat him the same way as any other trial. We will judge him the same way.

This promotion has NOTHING to do with the fact that John joined. You can ask ANY staff that have talked to me prior to him joining that I have been pushing for new Raid Leaders for a while.

Don't think that I didn't consider this seriously. I slept over this, and it is a risk I am willing to take.

I knew I had a choice between a creating scandal for myself and doing something that I believed could be beneficial for WG. I hope you guys know me well enough to understand that I will continue doing whatever I believe is best for WG, regardless the cost to my reputation.

Sounds like Tmaling in my honest opinion.

I'm not implying that you decided to hold the applications because he joined, but more that you set the req's at that level BECAUSE of him.

Its a big change from any previous staff application (including the event leader one that you did like a couple of weeks ago.), and I dont nessacarily think its a good one.

--Edit--

Good point Lefty.

All right guess were getting 1 Bad John as raid leader unless there is an upset. Any arguement that won't happen unless a member surprises us with his/her raiding ability doesn't make sense. He is the #1 most likely candidate. Hope we see some members up to the task though, but it is unlikely. Lets be honest lol.

BS.
I don't necessarily want John... Mtoise is applying, he's really good, he led rune raiders..... I don't know though, since I haven't seen any of the apps yet... or them actually doing the job....

he reason why we did trials instead of instant promotion (like we did last time), is because we want to see what EVERYONES capable of. You ALL know that I try my best to be fair, which is the exact reason why I didnt instantly promote ANYONE.

JC, putting forth an arguement that I should have instantly promoted him when you're saying that he shouldn't have a chance at all. Don't get bitter.

WG needs a Raid Leader.
John, and ANY OTHER WG THAT WANTS TO APPLY has a chance.
If they SHOW their ability, they will get promoted, REGARDLESS of their history (unless theres an obvious problem).
I don't care how long they've been in WG, as LONG AS THEY SHOW THAT THEY CAN DO THE JOB.

ALL applications from member to staff are based on potential and their characteristics.

When we pick a Raid Leader, we will be doing it based on the leading in WG.

If hes good, I don't care.

Ya John is a nice guy. It is just he hasn't been here for very long. Think of all the long standing members that have betrayed Weegee. The duration of your stay in the clan is not a direct indication of your commitment. Though they might have been great while here like Mugger, or great members like Dilz or Dale... So far John has been nothing but nice, good at attending events, and being active. I'm only arguing a little bit to clear up the problems. There is a good case for John to be raid leader. He is just most likely going to be picked that is all lol.

Its biased. I won't lie. However, I'm not going to shoot it down.

I hate to show this face in my final phase as Council, but it is a must. Right now we need experienced leaders, not people that need to be trained. Its biased as fuck and I know that. John has been in the business of leading pk's for ages. He knows what he's doing. I feel very comfortable raiding under him and he would do us well.

When else have we been biased? The last time we promoted a Raid Leader. Sean (DZ) was promoted to Raid Leader without an election. Lordy asked me if I wanted him on the crew. I said yes. The next day there was an IA saying we had a new Raid Leader. Everyone was happy. It was biased, but it was what we needed to be done.

Personally, Kevin and I have experience leading and raiding with him on multiple occasions. Choosing who you are comfortable with and who you know can do the job is part of elections and life. Between a good friend I trust and a kid I don't know that is an outsider, I would choose my friend every time.

Our clan is just now adjusting to our new phase. We made a transition from a strong F2P clan to a slumping clan with no base. Now we're doing great in P2P and the clan is becoming more passionate and active. We need someone the clan can trust. John has already won this.

Bias is always going to be done. For instance, if Kenshln returned, he would be promoted to Council ASAP if he asked for it. If I get more active, and WG needs Raid Leaders, I'm sure any current Council would foam at the mouth if I asked to become a RL.

It is, after all, a Trial stage they are aiming for. If others are better than him, they can have the position. However, I think it would be a mistake for the clan to not give him a chance.

This bias is an evil, but not promoting him and letting us have a weaker leadership staff in the wilderness would be a greater evil to the clan.

I don't know if it helps at all, but I've talked to John about it in the past on TS, he said something along the lines of "I wouldn't mind taking the position, but I don't want to get in the way of any other applicants."

So if we did pick John, and someone else did a great job of it, then bto's plan for 2 new Raid Leaders would be good.

As the other council have said before. Yes, this is quite biased, but do we really have a choice with our current number of wilderness leaders?

John has everything required to graduate and is just waiting for his mentor. Funny thing is that you still would have been annoyed even if he already graduated.

Hope this argument was worth it for you JC.

Funny thing is... you lower the requirements for a position just so that you allow someone to apply.

Either way... I hope we get two raid leaders. John and someone else with potential that can grow into the position. Good he is graduating soon. Bad timing it wasn't before the announcement. LOL

Council Has explained their position, and I think some sense has actually been said by both sides. The Gist is:

- 1 Bad John is probably going to get Trial at this stage should he apply based on his previous experience.
- Any bias is only to speed up the election process as it would only be a matter of days before John graduates anyway.
- WG has shit all decent wilderness leadership potential at the moment (this is implied when the probable best candidate joined the clan ~2 weeks ago).

I have to say, thought I am still dissapointed, I can now see a bit more clearly why BTO made this decision. I wish you guys had been honest about that in the first place, rather than trying to tell me that this wasn't the reason that Trial Guardians were allowed to apply.

I do hope that you guys make the right choice, perhaps you should let us members have some input on who does/does not do a good job during the trial period

I bugged John to join, but I think he would of ended up with us anyway. He is a really nice guy. I went on two raids with him and he was easy to follow and seemed a lil like our raid leaders are. From what I remember he made clear pile calls.

I totally trust BTO. Glenn is telling the truth about the bias and how sometimes it needs done for the better of the clan.

Muggers was a problem even when he was raid leader in WG and you guys just weren't listening to the people who could see it. He was never a great member. His bias behavior went to the throats of members and was harmful in the long run. I will leave it at that.

My biggest concern with John is what you all seem to love about him. His being from these other big/strong clans. Does this mean he is going to want to change us into something we are not and push away the skilling side of the clan. I don't see that in him yet or now. I am always about giving people a chance.

If I hadn't liked him, I would not of wanted him to join us. If this is what is truly best for WG then let it happen. Just remember JC has been on council here before and a long dedicated member of the clan. He speaks wisdom and so does Nick.

To both Gorge and Glenn,

I think the fact that I had the position twice in the past, all council chosen, had something to do with it this time around. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the warlord part. My bad.

I see.
Nothing's going to change.

I'm glad some of the Council admitted it was bias.
I do believe in that some bias is good for the clan and will actually help the clan.
But this one...Sure, it will help the clan in the short term, but I believe in the long term it will create a lot of conflict.

Wg consists of a lot of dedicated members, some very old, some quite new.
By making this change, this chance for John, who has just entered Wg, the people who have waited patiently, coming to events, posting on topics, coming to raids, are getting overlooked. They won't get noticed, when they see a Trial Guardian who has been in the clan for less than a month has been promoted to Raid Leader, and that they haven't even been promoted to Higher Guardian or Elite Guardian. It will certainly not go down well for them.

We also haven't seen many promotions recently to compensate for this bias, members are coming to raids & are dedicating, but they aren't getting much back from WG...We have to renew our.."Subscription" with them, if I may say, through promotions, MotM. They have to feel like they are progressing in WG.

If you make the ranks too hard to achieve, there won't be any people to achieve them.

John getting promoted to Raid Leader will send mixed messages and it will spiral down the clan & hit every member with it.

I understand with DZ's case, but we all accepted it because of his "prestige" WITHIN WG, everyone knew who DZ was, because a lot of people talked about him, and when he was considered rejoining, everyone encouraged him to do it, it was like, big media coverage.

Please don't tell JC off for bringing this up, it was very much needed, there's an obvious hole, and we needed to discuss about it. Arguments aren't bad, discussing about it makes people understand why Council are doing such a thing.

Anyway, I trust all of the Council, I know how they are like and I know they will never harm WG & they are doing it for the benefit of the clan, I will also put my trust in you guys. I'll hop on board with this plan, but please read what I said & consider it.

~Abs

P.S. - Wait a minute:

Well said Abs.

Sounds like there might be a possible compromise here: Let everyone apply, however if a trial or guardian gets the rank they stay at trial raid leader (meaning they are under more scrutiny also) until they reach the equivalent of higher guardian rank.

The effect is that someone like 1 bad john could still help WG out from the trial leader rank, yet it is less biased as he will require a longer trial period to prove himself.

We have to find someone with BOTH competence and dedication.
John has the competence and though I don't doubt his dedication, he has to prove it first, and that will only happen if he stays for longer.