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The Spying Poll
By His Lordship on 08/09/2009
Vote honestly. Think hard about your stance on spying and how much you like or dislike it. You may post below explaining your result if you wish. If you are for spying, don't automatically vote 10 if you are not truly desperate to have it. Likewise, if you don't like it, don't just vote 1 unless you are absolutely disgusted by spying.
By Bambaleo on 08/09/2009
go spies!
By Abmanju on 08/09/2009
I'm absolutely disgusted by spying.
By Bassism on 08/09/2009
5.
By Zemus3654 on 08/09/2009
Yes i think we should, maybe not towards clans whom have done nothing to us and are honour. But i don't see anything wrong with spying on clans like distortion, or rot for example.
By His Lordship on 08/09/2009
At this stage there are 3 for, 3 against, and 1 fencesitter.
This is gonna be an interesting debate.
This is gonna be an interesting debate.
By Colinwarrior on 08/09/2009
Really couldn't care either way.
On a side note though, it is rather sad watching WG sink lower and lower to the depths of normal clans. 3 years ago, we would not even consider having spies. Now with the tight gear restrictions, tight activity requirements, spying, etc...WG is becoming less and less appealing to me...it's losing the "fun and free for everyone" attitude that we used to have.
On a side note though, it is rather sad watching WG sink lower and lower to the depths of normal clans. 3 years ago, we would not even consider having spies. Now with the tight gear restrictions, tight activity requirements, spying, etc...WG is becoming less and less appealing to me...it's losing the "fun and free for everyone" attitude that we used to have.
By His Lordship on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Colinwarrior @ September 08, 2009 07:53 am) |
| Really couldn't care either way. On a side note though, it is rather sad watching WG sink lower and lower to the depths of normal clans. 3 years ago, we would not even consider having spies. Now with the tight gear restrictions, tight activity requirements, spying, etc...WG is becoming less and less appealing to me...it's losing the "fun and free for everyone" attitude that we used to have. |
My thoughts precisely.
I might have a meeting for 2+ year old members.
We'll set out an agenda to send us old school.
By BPN on 08/09/2009
5
By VEPHYSAURAS on 08/09/2009
Don't see the benefit. This is just trying to take a shortcut in pvp. Won't even work.
By Dieyou2000 on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (vephyrus @ September 08, 2009 03:12 am) |
| Don't see the benefit. This is just trying to take a shortcut in pvp. Won't even work. |
Spy!!!!!!!!!!
By rachellove9 on 08/09/2009
I voted 4, only cause I'm not into the raids/wars like the others. If I really voted for my own self it would of been a 1. I don't think we need to be number one in pvp by spying tbh. Is it really number one if you get it by cheating?
Why do we need to be number one in pvp again? Someone explain that to me.
Why do we need to be number one in pvp again? Someone explain that to me.
By Bassism on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (rachellove9 @ September 08, 2009 10:07 am) |
Why do we need to be number one in pvp again? Someone explain that to me. |
Why not? It's something to strive for, and we've been there in p2p before.
By Nick on 08/09/2009
Honestly, if we go to spying, we definitely need more pulls and better overall activity. For those for spying, step up the activity and make it worth it. Maybe even recruit too. Nothing is more embarrassing than spying on a clan to then get the shit beat out of us because we pulled shit. >_>'
EDIT: At the moment the polls are completely even with the same for and the same against. This is going to be good. For those reading and voting, if you have an opinion on the matter, please voice it. We need persuasion in this thread.
EDIT: At the moment the polls are completely even with the same for and the same against. This is going to be good. For those reading and voting, if you have an opinion on the matter, please voice it. We need persuasion in this thread.
By DZ on 08/09/2009
Turning out to be a close poll indeed.
By chip54321 on 08/09/2009
I said no to spying, WG became powerful because it was different from other clans in the way that it had a strict honour code. Spying would make us little better than the clans we hated and once fought.
By imtheganster on 08/09/2009
voted 8
By Pyroclastic0 on 08/09/2009
I don't agree with spying, alot of clans have gained members over the summer, and that is the thing wg needs fresh blood.
By ThisIsUnique on 08/09/2009
5
i wouldnt matter but if we would use spies i'd like diff things first
such as better pulls
i wouldnt matter but if we would use spies i'd like diff things first
such as better pulls
By Snowzak on 08/09/2009
I voted 3. Know it's none of my business, but I'd like to chip in as this is quite an important issue.
| QUOTE (Lefty2802 @ September 08, 2009 11:46 am) |
| Honestly, if we go to spying, we definitely need more pulls and better overall activity. For those for spying, step up the activity and make it worth it. Maybe even recruit too. Nothing is more embarrassing than spying on a clan to then get the shit beat out of us because we pulled shit. >_>' |
My thoughts exactly.
I don't think its worth the risk, nor that this is the time.
Don't read my boring post, the main point is: Spies shouldn't be the SOLUTION for performance, but an ADDITIONAL ADVANTAGE once you ALREADY HAVE considerable PvP power.
Spying isn't a magical solution which'll instantly bring easy targets and easy wins.
Having tried out being a WG spy in FT back in the day, I'll list below the obstacles and the solutions in green that I think would be necessary before thinking about spies.
1) As Lefty said, you need the pull & performance to actually beat the clan you spy on. You don't want to spy on too weak a clan either, its not worth the rep-risk.
--> Improve performance...
2) You need the flexibility: most clans who use spies are able to simply mass up as soon as their spy reports the target clan is out, and go beat the shit out of it. WG has never been the kind of clan that can mass up its full potential in fifteen minutes, and I doubt it is now.
--> Improve activity...
3) Getting an effective spy is long. You have to decide if its worth the effort, and worth risking WG's rep. Building up confidence takes many weeks, if not months. Between the day you implant the spy and the day you decide to use it, WG and the target clan have to still be compatible in terms of performance.
--> Stability, or constant improvement of WG
4) A spy in a clan can't be used too much. Admitting you do have the firepower to wipe out the clan you spy on each time you want to, the other clan will find there's something suspicious and run checks... and the spy's time spent in effort is wasted, as is the clan's rep.
-->Being able to beat not one, but five or six clans in which you have spies, that have a minimum of reputation & wilderness activity, to ensure that its worth the spy's time, and worth the reputation gain for WG.
5) Lastly, for a spying system to be efficient, you'd have to make sure it's kept secret from WG members. That's how intelligence works... otherwise there are leaks, inevitably, in the short or long term.
-->Too late.
By His Lordship on 08/09/2009
5) Lastly, for a spying system to be efficient, you'd have to make sure it's kept secret from WG members. That's how intelligence works... otherwise there are leaks, inevitably, in the short or long term.
-->Too late.
________
There's ho harm in telling WG we use spies.
As long as our means remain secret there's no harm.
DI members know the leaders spy.
-->Too late.
________
There's ho harm in telling WG we use spies.
As long as our means remain secret there's no harm.
DI members know the leaders spy.
By Snowzak on 08/09/2009
DI is DI. I don't question the guardians' loyalty, but an awful lot of people come and go through these doors.
I meant efficient as "kept secret from the clanworld to keep WG's honourable rep".
I meant efficient as "kept secret from the clanworld to keep WG's honourable rep".
By His Lordship on 08/09/2009
I wouldn't want to lie to my clan members. They can know we spy. It's no harm.
By Snowzak on 08/09/2009
The thing is, your clan member can become your enemy within a very short time. Or he can already be your enemy. If spies are reading this topic they're having a big laugh. For all you know I'm a spy, came back from inactivity to haunt WG. Muahahaha.
No but seriously, it all depends if you want to keep the Honourable E-Rep or not... I agree that it seems kind of useless but hey, I've always been the bloodthirsty type.
No but seriously, it all depends if you want to keep the Honourable E-Rep or not... I agree that it seems kind of useless but hey, I've always been the bloodthirsty type.
By George on 08/09/2009
3 - I don't think it is a good idea.
If we get find out, our reputation which we have spent years building up will be in absolute tatters. People will not join for the same reasons anymore, we will be considered NH and recruitment WILL fall.
If we get find out, our reputation which we have spent years building up will be in absolute tatters. People will not join for the same reasons anymore, we will be considered NH and recruitment WILL fall.
By Frozen_10 on 08/09/2009
3 - I don't think it's a good idea.
Imo we don't need spies. And its not worth it for our reputation.
Imo we don't need spies. And its not worth it for our reputation.
By Kiwi011 on 08/09/2009
I voted 3.
I don't need to explain myself, wg has always been a clan of morals and ethics that no one else in the game has had. Thats how I feel at least.
I don't need to explain myself, wg has always been a clan of morals and ethics that no one else in the game has had. Thats how I feel at least.
By Randy on 08/09/2009
No offense emeritus but once you guys come and get frustrated on our pk trips I don't think your opinions would be the same.
By Chimpy on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Zemus3654 @ September 08, 2009 02:44 am) |
| Yes i think we should, maybe not towards clans whom have done nothing to us and are honour. But i don't see anything wrong with spying on clans like distortion, or rot for example. |
ye
By God Reports on 08/09/2009
It sounds NH tbh..
By Kiwi011 on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Kingrandy0 @ September 08, 2009 06:28 pm) |
| No offense emeritus but once you guys come and get frustrated on our pk trips I don't think your opinions would be the same. |
no, it would pretty much be the same.
By Randy on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ September 08, 2009 04:18 pm) | ||
no, it would pretty much be the same. |
k come then
By sgtswordfish on 08/09/2009
knowledge is power, and having the knowledge of our opponents strength and weaknesses is one that gives us the know-how to face any situation.
if you're going to spy though, make sure to make it an essential and private sector without leaks.
if you're going to spy though, make sure to make it an essential and private sector without leaks.
By Dorcha3377 on 08/09/2009
All great armies in the history of the world have "intelligence" it allows them to make the best decisions they can.
I voted 7
I voted 7
By imtheganster on 08/09/2009
average at 49 votes is 5.2
By Snowzak on 08/09/2009
I know it's annoying Randy, if I had foreseen it would be so close I would've nulled my vote.
For my defence, I nonetheless posted an honest opinion, which was formulated taking into account the frustration of many PK trips.
(PS - You're very welcome to discard my vote for "3" if it ties. )
For my defence, I nonetheless posted an honest opinion, which was formulated taking into account the frustration of many PK trips.
(PS - You're very welcome to discard my vote for "3" if it ties. )
By Anthonysc on 08/09/2009
I've already made my thought process public on the other post.
But when It comes down to a vote, I'm strongly against it. Although Its not particularly my business anymore, I feel that it would be a major mistake to make.
But when It comes down to a vote, I'm strongly against it. Although Its not particularly my business anymore, I feel that it would be a major mistake to make.
By Kyle on 08/09/2009
I'm about a 4. I don't have THAT much problem with it, but I'm not really liking it either.
Honestly, who could we spy on right now?
Honestly, who could we spy on right now?
By Chimpy on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Darth Magul @ September 08, 2009 05:31 pm) |
| I'm about a 4. I don't have THAT much problem with it, but I'm not really liking it either. Honestly, who could we spy on right now? |
bto's mom
By Quikdrawjoe on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Chimp Guy0 @ September 08, 2009 10:37 pm) | ||
bto's mom |
I change my vote to 10 if we spy on BTO.
If we start spying we become like everyone else, everyone else spies also. With the ARPK code and not spying we stand as a light against the dark in a world where the level of acceptable behavior is sinking. Eg. DDoSing forums/TS, hacking, new heights of flaming, real life flaming
Once you start going down a slippery slope it's hard to stop.
By Planolocal on 08/09/2009
6 tbh.
we desperately need some fuckin action. and Randy changed my mind about it.
we desperately need some fuckin action. and Randy changed my mind about it.
By txtawkin on 08/09/2009
| QUOTE (Quikdrawjoe @ September 08, 2009 06:00 pm) | ||||
I change my vote to 10 if we spy on BTO. If we start spying we become like everyone else, everyone else spies also. With the ARPK code and not spying we stand as a light against the dark in a world where the level of acceptable behavior is sinking. Eg. DDoSing forums/TS, hacking, new heights of flaming, real life flaming Once you start going down a slippery slope it's hard to stop. |
+1
By David on 09/09/2009
Voted 6, simply because I want more action on our raids.
I'm not fanatical about it, so I won't argue for it because I know the risks are equal to or greater than the possible good that could come out of doing something like this.
We'd be putting all the things that make us different on the line, so if we did do this we'd have to keep quiet about WHO was doing what.
My only gripe with announcing this to everyone in WG is that we let people come in like it's nobody's business. I look through our applications and we've got about 5 denials a majority of which have had previous experience with WG. But every newcomer is accepted. I know we need more people, but there is a difference between growth and mass recruiting...and keep in mind that "mass" has to be put in perspective of the clan doing the recruiting.
Regardless, I'd like to have the rewards of spying but understand that there are many risks to be taken and even more things to consider and improve on before we even start this.
Again, I voted 6.
I'm not fanatical about it, so I won't argue for it because I know the risks are equal to or greater than the possible good that could come out of doing something like this.
We'd be putting all the things that make us different on the line, so if we did do this we'd have to keep quiet about WHO was doing what.
My only gripe with announcing this to everyone in WG is that we let people come in like it's nobody's business. I look through our applications and we've got about 5 denials a majority of which have had previous experience with WG. But every newcomer is accepted. I know we need more people, but there is a difference between growth and mass recruiting...and keep in mind that "mass" has to be put in perspective of the clan doing the recruiting.
Regardless, I'd like to have the rewards of spying but understand that there are many risks to be taken and even more things to consider and improve on before we even start this.
Again, I voted 6.
By ArSeNaLfAn32 on 09/09/2009
I want it. Its so common to use spying. Nearly all clans use it, or claim to use it. We don't have to send them everywhere, but we need to know what's on with Distortion, or our raids are going to keep getting more boring.
By Mangomaniac2 on 09/09/2009
3. I don't think its a good idea.
Never have, probably never will like spying. I understand why clans do it, but its cheap and low in my opinion. Doesn't seem like something we should be partaking in, even if other clans do it.
Never have, probably never will like spying. I understand why clans do it, but its cheap and low in my opinion. Doesn't seem like something we should be partaking in, even if other clans do it.
By Planolocal on 09/09/2009
sorry if this offends anyone, but I really dont think the emritus members who havent played in 3+ months shouldnt be voting. 
By Twizlers300 on 09/09/2009
e: nevermind
By Bassism on 09/09/2009
Having read the replies, if I could change my vote I would.
From a 5, to a 2.
From a 5, to a 2.
By JC on 09/09/2009
| QUOTE (Planolocal @ September 09, 2009 07:22 pm) |
| sorry if this offends anyone, but I really dont think the emritus members who havent played in 3+ months shouldnt be voting. |
I have to say that I strongly disagree with that Adam.
Emeritus may not have a huge intrest in whether WG's raids are super exciting or not, but most of them have made a huge contribution to WG over the years & have an intrest in seeing whether we are successful or not.
In fact, in this instance 4/6 of the emeritus who have posted are people who have spent significant amounts of time as council in WG so I would say, regardless of their current activity, they have earnt their vote.
Spying does affect them even if they aren't likely to see *any* benefits.
By Lee on 09/09/2009
See, I voted 10. Now let me give you reasons.
For the last 2 raids I have led...everyone has just gotten bored, because we couldnt find anyone to fight. Ok..you might say 'free ep'. But we dont raid just to get free EP. We raid to fight other clans in the wilderness. To show our dominance, at what the wilderness guardians were made for. Whats the point in having Raid leaders and warlords, if all we are going todo, is arrange fights, in CWA. Might aswell have 10 fall in leaders. Which anyone can do. And even after me and bto are dead, we can still call piles, just from the viewing orb.
If we allow spying, we can pretty much guarentee action, every time we pk....which means, more people come to raids, which means we can then take on better clans, and start to assert ourselves back at what we ARE good at. You guys know it aswell.
Every clan spies, even if they say they dont. Its like a fact. Thats how they get tracks on other clans, guarentee'ing there members action. Then they grow, because they tell there friends 'look come pk with us, because I can guarentee we get a fight' Even if they win or lose, they continue to grow.
You guys are living in the past. You need to catch up. WG isnt what it used to be. Everything has changed from 2 years ago. The whole clan world has changed. This isnt a DS vs the world time anymore. There are sooo many top clans. For us to even hit the top 30...is going to require effort. And we need to step up, or give up. I seriously hope you reconsider. Or Raiding is just going to become pointless...Seriously..
For the last 2 raids I have led...everyone has just gotten bored, because we couldnt find anyone to fight. Ok..you might say 'free ep'. But we dont raid just to get free EP. We raid to fight other clans in the wilderness. To show our dominance, at what the wilderness guardians were made for. Whats the point in having Raid leaders and warlords, if all we are going todo, is arrange fights, in CWA. Might aswell have 10 fall in leaders. Which anyone can do. And even after me and bto are dead, we can still call piles, just from the viewing orb.
If we allow spying, we can pretty much guarentee action, every time we pk....which means, more people come to raids, which means we can then take on better clans, and start to assert ourselves back at what we ARE good at. You guys know it aswell.
Every clan spies, even if they say they dont. Its like a fact. Thats how they get tracks on other clans, guarentee'ing there members action. Then they grow, because they tell there friends 'look come pk with us, because I can guarentee we get a fight' Even if they win or lose, they continue to grow.
You guys are living in the past. You need to catch up. WG isnt what it used to be. Everything has changed from 2 years ago. The whole clan world has changed. This isnt a DS vs the world time anymore. There are sooo many top clans. For us to even hit the top 30...is going to require effort. And we need to step up, or give up. I seriously hope you reconsider. Or Raiding is just going to become pointless...Seriously..
By Ranma344 on 09/09/2009
| QUOTE (His Lordship @ September 08, 2009 02:59 am) | ||
My thoughts precisely. I might have a meeting for 2+ year old members. We'll set out an agenda to send us old school. |
Am I invited?
By Imperator07 on 09/09/2009
I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but can you imagine what might possibly happen if certain people in the clan world found out that WG had spies out there?
I've always been against spies, personally. I've just never really seen the point in it, and generally I think "NH" when i think spy.
I've always been against spies, personally. I've just never really seen the point in it, and generally I think "NH" when i think spy.
By Catestrophe on 10/09/2009
7, It can be handy, but does it fit in the clans honour?
By Starzhine on 16/09/2009
Great question . . . and again the wonderful diversity of WG shows. It is a split right down the middle.
I have one question, isn't defeating the definition of spy (covert) if everyone knows about it?
WG
I have one question, isn't defeating the definition of spy (covert) if everyone knows about it?
WG
By For Sooth on 16/09/2009
| QUOTE (Starzhine @ September 16, 2009 12:40 pm) |
| Great question . . . and again the wonderful diversity of WG shows. It is a split right down the middle. I have one question, isn't defeating the definition of spy (covert) if everyone knows about it? WG |
Exactly what I said.
By Mmangler on 20/10/2009
Hell Nooooooo to spying. Like Joe likes to say NH
By Kyle on 20/10/2009
Try not to bump old topics, please...
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