Abortion

I saw a similar topic made in DF forums by homedawg so I thought I should make one here as well to see people's thoughts, most of you know the discussion about abortion (it being legal or illegal) is one of the most heated discussion nowadays.

Personally I don't think it should be allowed unless it endangers the mother's life because I (personally) don't think she or the father should be allowed to take away their child's life for selfish reasons (In my own thoughts that is)

Whats your opinion? Keep it civil please (:

Oh and one more thing, can we keep the whole religion vs atheism debate away from this topic? It tends to get involved in these sort of stuff so yah just post your own thoughts and argue in a civiled manner without insulting someones religion or atheists as a whole.

Post awayyyyyyyy

Ooo, this should be an active topic... Could turn into one of those heated flamefests that will be fun to read once it hits 5 pages, oh wait... This isn't RSC...

In all seriousness, I'm kind of in the middle on Abortion. I can see why people don't want it to happen and would want the mother to not kill the fetus inside of her, but on the other hand, who are we to judge someone who feels that they aren't ready for that responsibility, and we shouldn't, as a society, have protests that degrade into violence. I don't think that we have a right to say that she shouldn't do it, but if I was friends with the person, then I would try to at least talk to her (if she's willing to talk) and see if I could get her away from going through with it and if she feels her relationship isn't ready for a child, then I'd ask her to put the child up for adoption. If I couldn't convince her to do that, then I'd be the good friend and try to help her through what was coming up.

Pro-choice.


I'm tired of these topics though. I could write a whole long reply here, but I just don't feel like it anymore. I've seen like 30 of these topics come and go on WG's forums. They always end in someone's feelings getting hurt. Usually by me. So I might delve into this topic in good time. Especially if someone starts spouting some bullshit. Just keep that in mind.

Abortion should be illegal IMO. Thats my opinion, not gonna argue anymore......wg discussions always end up in baits and never lead anywhere, even if they are kinda fun, but I'm over it.

Pro-choice.

Oh lawd, I can see where this is going.

Pro Choice.

Preemptively - knowledgeably - not allowing someone to live is the same thing as killing them after the fact. I'm pro-life.

I don't understand how you can "kill" something that hasn't even been born yet. Maybe it has a heartbeat but it doesn't have conciousness, and I wouldn't really have regrets if abortion is painless (I don't know on that)

But not all women are ready for childbirth and parenting, and not all contraception is 100% guaranteed. I think it should be legalised, and my thoughts are the same for euthanasia.

I'm pro-choice
I'm sorry but i feel if they can't being the child up well there's no point the child being in the world. Also Rape victims and Inbred victims should be able to get rid of it.
People doing it because they wont be able to "cope" should just wear a condom of not have sex, tis final. And if they use the excuse "My man doesn't like it" then tell your man to fuck off or wear one.

More replies :#

I think that its the woman's choice. Nobody elses. No man should ever force a woman to get rid of it. No country should deny the option completely.

Women's choice
Don't compound a mistake
I find a more interesting question would be if you have to save the child or your wife/yourself (f you're female) who would you save?

1. Ask yourself this question: Why is this a legal issue at all?

As a woman I think that it has no place in the legal system. This is a medical issue. I am not one to want or believe this is a form of birth control. But what gives the government any say in a medical issue. (Or better yet, what gives them any say in a moral/religious issue.) Government should stay out of the privacy of the family.

2. Insurance companies should have more input on prevention.

Why doesn't insurance companies offer a discount to family/females that go through some kind of classes? We do this for auto insurance. Maybe preventive/education is a better way around less misuse of this procedure.

3. Pay off the mothers to have the child.

If the government wants to stop abortions, maybe they should offer 10k to the mother to put the baby up for adoption. We have many families in the USA that are getting babies from other countries. If the mother could get 10k as a one time offer to give up the child and it could help her get on her feet. It would still be less to pay then having them on welfare. It should not be like selling children to the adoptive parents. This plan would need some really good thinking.

Since I am female, I have to say that I would not carelessly take the life of any child I would be carrying. Not even from rape. But if given choice to live myself or die with the child also dying, I am not going to kill us both. No man will ever have a say over my body about this . . . not a husband, not a boyfriend, not any man, not the government, not even my father.

The choice of the mother, as she has to deal with the choice for the rest of her life. No one else should decide.

Pro choice.

If my Gf got pregnant i'd obviously tell her my feelings, but in the end i would want her to be happy with the choice, it's her whos going to have to carry it, take time out of work/studies etc.

Anyone who votes pro Life is harsh, if u were raped, and became pregnant you may change your view but until then i guess not.

Rape
Incest
Good life (If u can't afford to look after yourself why bring a child into the world? some people hardly afford to eat, it wouldn't be fair on the child.)


^^All good reasons, im a afraid.

Let me try and explain my train of thought.

Imagine you're at a horse race; Horse A is winning by a huge margin. He's a lap ahead of any other horse on the track and he's within 15 yards of the finish. Then you shoot him through the head with a 50-cal. sniper rifle. The horse is instantly decapitated and lands in a twisted heap of bloody horse flesh six inches from the finish line. Are you responsible for Horse A from not winning the race?

After all, he never crossed the finish line, so he hadn't won yet. You just decided that, eventually, if he wins he'll have to race again. And the more he races the higher the chance that he'll be injured and his quality of life will be ruined. Or maybe he'll be sold, and there's a chance that his quality of life won't be as good with his new owner as with his old one.

Within a reasonable course of events, it's entirely reasonable to assume that a child will be born healthy with no complications for himself (or herself) or the mother. If an abortion is performed you are entirely responsible for that child not being able to live. In effect, you are committing pre-murder. Rather than taking someone's life, you're not letting them have a chance at all.

I'll just leave this here....

^win

There is no true black or white answer to the abortion issue. Most sensible people don't believe in using abortion as a form of birth control, no matter how "inconvenient" the pregnancy is.

However, there is a need for safe and legal abortion in society. The families that I deal with daily who are told the tragic news that their baby is going to either die after birth or have no chance at even a semi normal life deserve to have a safe, legal, and caring environment to terminate the pregnancy.

And all you die hard pro lifers can say what you want, but you truly have no idea what your decision would be if you were in that position.

Bill Clinton said it best. "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare".

This can get very heated very fast. I'm gonna throw my opinion into the hat and be done with the discussion. I'm not willing to be swayed in my beliefs on the subject, and using yours to tell me I'm wrong or to convince me otherwise will be in vane. Just fyi.


I do not fall into the pro-choice category. Some dumb chick that got knocked up and impregnated due to consenual sex should NOT have the option to abort the pregnancy. She is pregnant due to her own stupidity, and it could have been prevented by NOT having sex, or using birthcontrol/better borth control. Contraceptives are cheap, so money should never be an issue-attempting to say that not everyone can afford birth control is an outright lie.

A mother, regardless of age, reason, and beliefs, can always give her baby up for adoption. IF they don't feel that they are ready to support a child, this is a solution. Many couples in the US suffer from sterility-either one or both parties-and want to adopt. The mother, as the mother, has every right to CHOOSE who adopts her child.


However, abortion should be legal in extenuating circumstances, such as:

1. Rape victims that were impregnated due to being raped
2. Mothers who's physical health is directly threatened by the pregnancy (i.e. ecoptic pregnancies)
3. Minors who's education may be affected by the pregnancy, only with parental/legal guardian consent. Yes, it's their body, but it's a medical procedure, and they are still MINORS.

Siruations other than these, should not be legal reasons to abort a pregnancy. Situations like:

"I got pregnant because my boyfriend said he woud pull out, but didn't"
-YOU should have demanded protection. Either use a condom, or make him wait until you get your own contraceptive (the pill, foam, shot, sponge etc)

"I was drunk and forgot to ell him to use a condom"
-It's your fault for drinking in excess, and his for not being clever enough to use that condom your forgot to tell him to put on. "I was drunk" isn't an excuse in the real world. Pregnant? Welcome to the real world.

"The condom broke!"
-This is why many people recommend more than one type of birth control.

"I'm on the pill, but I had sex too early!"
-Your doctor advises you on how to take the pill for a reason.

"I'm just not ready to be a mother"
-Adoption is always an option. You can even choose who adopts your child, it's not liek the state will pair you with someone.


My point is, abortion should not be pro-choice. I am not "pro-choice", nor am I fully "pro-life". I do, however, believe that if the pregnancy is life threatening, due to forced sex, or could place a hinderance on a grade school education, it should be legal.

Most of this thread is

Pro choice

Let me ask you something. Most cases not all but most cases the baby that is even considered for abortion is from teenage pregnancy. Sometimes that baby is being born into a good family with good money and influence but just a daughter that went a bit crazy... that's so rare. Most abortion cases are teenage girls who have been there more then once. Those kids won't have a chance. They'll most likely end up in the streets dealing or killing. It's how it happens when you start life with no chances or opportunities. We're all lucky we have any choice at all in life. Why make anyone go through that kind of hell and just let them skip to the good part heaven (if you believe in it) right away? Im Pro choice.

I feel like I should justify myself now.

I'm pro-CHOICE because I believe women should have the right to decide whether or not they want to have the organism that is inside them. Note I said organism - I don't believe that conception is the start of life. I'd argue that when an abortion becomes unsafe and immoral is when "life" starts - yes it's arbitrary but that's just how I view it.

I don't view abortion (within the regular time constraints) as murder. I do think it's grotesque and all that nasty stuff, but I don't think a women should be forced into having a baby she doesn't want, or can't take care of.

You might think that it's her fault, and it may have been her fault but haven't you ever fucked up and wanted a second, third or even fourth chance? This is sort of like a "reset" button. She could learn from her mistakes or continue getting pregnant and aborting, but it's HER choice.

You can't tell me you've never wanted to take something back. And if you had been given the chance to undo your mistake that you would have taken that opportunity. Why is this any different? A girl may have been fucked up one night, had unprotected sex and gotten pregnant. Whoops. Well, turns out she doesn't have to live with that mistake (physically) for her entire life. If she does it again, let her abort again. Because you know if you made the same mistake again you'd be asking for another chance.

I have one other comment though - why is it that if you're not pro-choice, you're pro-LIFE? As in I'm not for life? Right...

For those of you that are pro-no choice, are you for stem cell research?

my opinion is simple: if both, father and mother agree, then yes, but if one of them wants to have it - then no.

As I said, the mother chooses who adopts her baby. I can't see a person CHOOSING to give her child to someone that couldn't handle it. Grow up on the streets dealing and killing? Come on. Seriously? Who would put a child in that kind of situation?

Adoption is an option if the mother doesn't feel she can raise it herself, why the fuck would she give it someone that can do no better?

Valid points, please.



Also-I, for one, believe that life starts at conception.

Ok that's it.
I HAVE to join this debate.

Pro-choice, BUT I AM EX-PRO-LIFE!

__________

Don't worry Steve it won't be 2l;dr.

Simply put, I was all about "This baby is a human being and is defenceless. It is murder and all that."

Then I got into a situation where I found out my ex was pregnant and all of a sudden, I was on the other side. We were in no condition to give that baby a good life. It wouldn't have just fucked up the baby, it would have fucked up all three of us (mind you, she thought it would be a good thing to have the baby) but she was being naive.

In terms of being human... you wouldn't tell me it's immoral to destroy a single fertilised egg. The process of becoming human is gradual. A fertilised egg containing human DNA is not human. I can't really tell what makes it human, but I am going to put my personal marker on the start of the third trimester.

All you pro-life people... go knock up a chick and see how your morals hold.

LOL I feel like contributing some talking points to this debate.

1. Every time you masturbate you kill thousands of potential lives. MURDERERS!!!

2. The world is already overpopulated. There are hundreds of millions if not billions of people that go hungry every night because our food production currently does not match the rate at which we are reproducing.

3. We kill millions of chickens, cattle, fish, etc...EVERY DAY. I thought you people were pro-life!

4. Life does not begin at conception. The first few weeks, there is only a clump of cells that does not have a heartbeat, or brain. It does not feel pain. It has no senses. It does not breathe. Just a clump of cells. A tree is more a living thing than that technically. And we cut those down by the trillions.


Basically, all you men that are pro-life just want to control what other people do with their lives. Well it's not your decision. So fuck off.

I like this guy's train of thought ^

You can say if something's alive or if it's not, but there's a very fine line between the two.

Also read up on Dr. Tiller... I find it amusing how an anti-abortionist is fine with taking a fully grown man's life who dedicated it to medical causes.

I'm not pro abortion or against abortion
I'm just pro choice.

Oh god not this debate, it's literally the one that will NEVER have a definite answer, there are so many points for whichever side you support.

We use to bring this up in my Philosphy 12 class and it went on for hours lol

America = free country lol

I could get into this whole huge debate about it but yea, ppl who are pro-life are the same people who are pro-religion and pro-god-in-everything and are the same dumb people who believe that a magical part of your brain teleports to an alternate dimension and continues to live in eternal peace in some place with free pizza or some crap. But I won't get into that, cuz it's a free country, so you lose.

Holy shit it's like arguing with a brick wall.

I'm watching a movie right now so maybe I'll post a proper response afterward.

Before this gets too out of hand, I want people to make sure this remains a DEBATE.

Any hardcore flaming and I'll lock this and warn people.

I'm leaving this open currently because as it stands, nothing points in the direction of this topic becoming an outright flamefesst. But if it does, I'll make sure those who participated are punished and that the topic is locked.

Keep the debate going.

Life doesn't begin at birth, at conception, at fertilization, or any of that. Life started some time billions of years ago and never stopped. Sperm is alive, the Egg is alive, when they combine they are simply mutating to turn into YOU. Becoming YOU doesn't make it more alive, it just makes it a more advanced kind of alive. When you think about it you're made of the same 'life' that started forever ago and kept going through sperm and egg and whatever up until now, that's what you are made of, it's how you are alive, and stopping it for rational cause is not murder.

Just thought I'd add according to the (peer reviewed) Journal of the American Academy of Family Physicians approximately 20% of recognized pregnancies spontaneously abort anyway without any outside intervention, and thats just recognized pregnancies, which doesn't count those that only make it a few days (week or so, which is bound to be far, far more.) So, whats the few fractions of a percent of induced abortions, irrelevant really.

Clarification:

NEVER EVER IN A FUCKING MILLION YEARS SHOULD IT BE LEGAL. kthx.

I personally think this problem will always be a bit of an issue between those who believe it is wrong and those who believe it is not. The only way I see this issue coming to an agreement is if scientists discover whether a fetus is actually sentient (aware of being alive) in the womb. If they discover this, then perhaps anytime before the fetus is sentient would be considered civilized and not a completely horrible thing to do. Yet again, you still do take a way a life, or at least the potential for life no matter what.

I honestly have no idea on my personal view of the topic though. Because I don't know what I would do if I got a girl pregnant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkp8-vuOWYU&feature=related

Just putting this out there.
I think a child would prefer to live in difficulty than not live at all. Life is hard. If you get pregnant and you're not ready, deal with it and put it up for adoption once its born. It'd rather live in an orphanage than be killed by a knife.

EDIT: Also, people think abortion is killing a tiny, microscopic egg. Abortion is usually after 8-12 weeks into pregnancy. The baby has a developed heart, lung, brain, nervous system, etc. It doesn't look like a human being, but its damned close. The last half of pregnancy is the simpler part of growing. Trust me, this baby screams and goes through an insane amount of pain as its literally cut up by a doctor's version of a butcher's knife.

If you say you're really pro choice, I ask one thing from you. I plead that you watch an abortion take place, and THEN judge if you think its right or not. If you don't have the balls to witness the killing, fuck off and don't judge who has the right to live or not.

I'm sort of in the middle as well, because to give a proper decision you really need to do the research.

If I had to chose, I'd be pro-abortion. That's the gut feeling answer, but it depends on the circumstances. If the baby is not going to get a good life, and always be seen as a 'mistake', that's a horrible way to grow up and often with negative consequences. Abortion should be a last option but sometimes its the best way.

It is very immoral, but humans aren't much different to animals. We kill animals and their young all the time, we eat eggs which could have been fertilised to make little chickens, its part of life.


I'd say the most important thing is that its an informed decision. Whatever the decision, its crucial that a lot of thought went into it and whatever occurs is done for the greater good.

Txt. Abortion clinics are not so efficient. They give anti-pain meds to the woman herself, and that's it. There is often permanent damage to womens' vaginas in the process as well.
Sure if there's a medical necessity or danger to the mother, yes, killing one instead of two people is the lesser of two evils. But this is almost none of the abortions.

Rape victims only account for about 2% of abortions...
My social justice class did a 6 week research project on abortions last year. We watched an uncensored video of an abortion. Multiple people puked, and one passed out. Its the sickest, most cruel thing I have ever seen in my life.
After gross cutting, the doctor sucks out segments of baby arms, legs, torso parts, etc. Its fucking brutal.

"If I had to chose, I'd be pro-abortion. That's the gut feeling answer, but it depends on the circumstances. If the baby is not going to get a good life, and always be seen as a 'mistake', that's a horrible way to grow up and often with negative consequences. Abortion should be a last option but sometimes its the best way." -Tnuac
Dude. A baby would rather live than be killed. You don't know what's best for it. They are just as much human as we are. They grow up, have friends, get jobs, etc.
Just as gays aren't hung, why should a baby not be allowed to grow up?

^ Thanks for clearing that up.

Injection into heart, 30 seconds. Not exactly the most pleasant way for it to happen but better than the lovely picture Glenn painted.

Main reasons from wiki on induced abortion:

* save the life of the pregnant woman
* preserve the woman's physical or mental health
* terminate pregnancy that would result in a child born with a congenital disorder that would be fatal or associated with significant morbidity or
* selectively reduce the number of fetuses to lessen health risks associated with multiple pregnancy.

So, the mother could die or lose her sanity without abortion, or the child could be born with a fatal or severe disability and Glenn says, in his exact words, "deal with it"

This is a neverending argument

That is true in some cases Glenn. I wish that these types of abortions would never take place honestly. I am afraid however that to prevent those the extreme "pro lifers" are trying to prevent all terminations, no matter what the reason.

Dr. Tiller is a good example of "pro life" extreme action. This man was one of the few in the country doing abortions after 24 weeks. Late term abortions such as those were usually done because the family just found out something horrible and has made the decision to terminate. The procedure would take place as I explained before, under ultrasound guidance so that only one needle stick was required.

Most of the elective abortions of "convenience" take place early in pregnancy. I personally would prefer restrictions on those types of abortions, but it needs to always be available when medically necessary.

Look up cases of women who have endured abortions. Look, specifically, at immediately after, one year after, 5 years after, and 10 years after.
Within a year, MOST regret it. Not all. Some don't, but most do.
"Main reasons from wiki on induced abortion:

* save the life of the pregnant woman
* preserve the woman's physical or mental health
* terminate pregnancy that would result in a child born with a congenital disorder that would be fatal or associated with significant morbidity or
* selectively reduce the number of fetuses to lessen health risks associated with multiple pregnancy."
The REALISTIC REASON MOST GET AN ABORTION IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THEY CAN HANDLE A CHILD + THE ENDURANCE WILL BE "TOUGH" FOR THEM. SUCK IT UP, YOU HAD UNPROTECTED SEX AND YOU'RE AN IDIOT. IF YOU DON'T STUDY FOR A TEST, YOU FAIL IT. DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL ISN'T THE SOLUTION, LIVING WITH YOUR MISTAKE IS.
If you know the baby is going to die, then get an abortion. That rarely happens and makes up a jokingly small portion of abortions.

People and their self-deception disallow them to ever admit something was EVER their fault. This is why our society is bust. One of the most realistic quotes I've ever heard is that "The biggest argument against Democracy is a 5 minute chat with the average voter." We're all retards. Barely anyone knows what they're talking about. They hear something, so they believe it and vote for it. There's near no line of critical thought. People just absorb what they hear.

If there is no MEDICAL reason to get an abortion, why should people be allowed to. Its bullshit. They don't want to go through the pain, and they don't want to be embarrassed. I feel they deserve both for being an idiot. If you aren't ready to have a baby, why are you having unprotected sex? Fucking idiots.
Now, all of you are going to say "well obviously their condom broke, so it was an accident." Bullshit. Near all teenage pregnancies are because they convinced themselves they couldn't get pregnant, even if it was unprotected sex.

Live up to what you do. Most people don't. I guarantee that when you do something wrong and you don't want to get in trouble, most people lie and blame someone else. Grow up.

ArSeNaLfAn32 your concept of what abortion is, is made up of anti-abortion propaganda, as far as I know (which is pretty far considering my area of study), they haven't performed abortions like that it decades. 99.9% of induced abortions are what txtawkin describes.

Glenn, I do see where you're coming from. I'm talking about the rare cases where the child would be extremely unhappy / mistreated / abused / or in the rare cases contemplating suicide. But of course, because the government should give support money to single mothers and couples in the situation, the cases will only be rare.

Though, in some cases the kid will go through the tough times and make something of themselves. As long as they're just deprived and not abused or mistreated, they could do well in life. Many famous people have tough backgrounds.

1. Nuke all humans.
2. ???
3. Profit!

I'm bored of debating lol.

I'm half and half. I don't believe that you should abort a child in the making, purely because even at such an early stage, it still deserves a chance at life. But at the same time, I can agree with it on some parts. I believe that people unfit to be parents should abort. It's always a shame to see a baby die due to child neglect or abuse. The baby shouldn't have to suffer, they should have just aborted it in the first place.

What if your mom had an abortion?

1. Don't get knocked up by ur dad.
2. Don't need an abortion.
3. ???
4. Profit!

That's where 'pro-life' gets it wrong. They don't care what happens before conception/after birth, which is where the real problems are. Stop the cause of abortions and solve the problems after birth and the issue goes away entirely.


EDIT: just throwing this out there

sperm + egg > embryo > fetus > baby > adult > sperm/egg

where does the life part start? a looong time ago that's when. as I see it children aren't as much 'new human beings' or 'new life forms' as much as they are an extension and evolution of yourself and your spouse as created by parts of your own DNA.

Okay, on one hand we have Pro-Choice.
Give them an abortion, 5k in medical services!

OR

Make the dumb crack whore squirt out baby after baby after baby! WEEEEE!!! She goes on Welfare. That's like 500-2k a month for as long as the kids live with her. Then there's the 1k-2k food stamps, and medical benefits for her and the brats. Since the courts almost never take the kids away.... That will be for a while. Medical is what... Lots a year? And then the kids go to school. Get free lunch. Get all this stuffs. Costing a lot more than the cheap abortion.

Why don't they sterilize after 2 kids.

We could always just feed the unwanted newborn babies to the homeless... No abortions, end to world hunger... Everyone wins!