The EPers Debate

I just have to say you're incorrect there Jordan, it is not against the RS rules to sit in PvP with the intent of gaining EP. At the end of the day to gain EP you have to be in PvP with over 76k of items, so (with some exceptions) you always have the potential to loose that.

Jagex has always stated that EP is only one factor in determining what drop you get in PvP anyway, with Target kills and DP being important as well. They do say that '76k'ing' is against the spirit of the game, but once again, it's not strictly against the rules.

I'm on the fence with EP'er killing, because while I agree that ultimately they will use that EP to kill people the WG ARPK code does not state "We must not kill skillers", it states:

ie. "Randomers". I guess you can decide based on their intent to Pk in the future, or that they are a 'randomer' while EP'ing

Imagine the skull system is still in effect. EPers do not attack anyone, and therefore would not be skulled. And don't forget ARPKing means Anti-Random Player Killing - EPers fall under that category.

They are no threat to innocents, and even though they are using the PvP system in the way it is meant to be used, it is not abuse, as there is no rule against it. I have EP'ed, and I think it would be fairly hard to find another WG member who hasn't at some point. It is unfair to assume they would use their profits for PKing, as their reasons vary from person to person. Ask yourself, how would you feel if you were killed by an ARPK clan when you bore no threat to anyone else? To me, it makes us look as if we are simply drop-whores who lack morals.

I will not attack an EPer on a raid. I stand by the concept that our only adversaries in the wild should be people who are prepared to fight.

If they aren't prepared for a fight eg. have no gear, then yes we should stay off them.

But not innocents. The person they kill would have to be either a target or risking 76k themselves, so unless they go EPer-hunting themselves (which I doubt), they bear no threat to our cause. If they're clearly AFK or botting, then I'd turn a blind eye to it. But I hate to see WG chasing a person who is clearly not AFK or botting and not prepared for a fight.

But we can transfer certain words across, like "weak", "innocent" and "random". It's how we apply them to the new system that matters.

Okay Jordan, gotta ask what your point is there?

Am I allowed to go killing most of WG's staff (and I would suspect, the majority of WG to some extent) because the vast majority log into each others accounts? I know you PK on other members accounts so why the sudden "omgf they're rule breaking, I'm on the moral high ground"?

I disagree with any assumption that "If X is doing this I assume they're doing that" because in general it is a select few who make the majority of people look bad and I suspect that the amount of EP'ers that break other rules is smaller than you think.

I think if any decision is made it should be based on facts rather than 'assumptions' that because they're EP'ing they must be botting/afking/<insert randomly selected rule breaking here>.

Original:

Revised:

Sly

I EP and I don't kill skillers/trainers

Us and the Sabres are an exception to that, as we don't kill skillers/trainers.

Just had a thought about this:

Who are we to 'punish' people for something they may do sometime in the future? by the same argument if someone is using brawlers they must have PK'd someone at some point in time, so they aren't innocent either. Are they fine to PK?

I guess my overall thought is stick to the "Here and now" and PK only those who are there to PK, if they're EP'ing so be it, they're still clearly not there to PK at that moment. If WG got a reputation for killing EP'ers I suspect you would find we'll loose allot of credibility as an 'honour' clan, as well as looking pretty pixel hungry.

Yeah, but think about it from an EPer's point of view. You've just spent 4 hours sitting around getting 100% EP. Do you go kill a guy with a rune pickaxe or go after someone with half a mil worth of gear? Like JC said, we can't judge people on what they *might* do, for all we know they could just do a triangle and be done with it.

If you think about it, someone who does a triangle is technically killing an "innocent." They must kill someone who is also risking. Therefore, triangling is technically player killing.

Incorrect sir. We've established that EPers don't fall under the category of "innocents", they're under "random".

Because we all do triangles at the end of raids, does that make us RPKers? No

So by virtue of filling their EP they must automatically be intended to straight up pk with it? You ignored my point. I feel like I'm in a religious debate, I should have ignored this topic lol. Really though there is still the possibility of merely 76king/triangling and though it is discouraged it isn't against Jagex's rules. I feel like were using this just to get a few more pixels/drops for ourselves at raids.

The Sabres are allowed to kill Epers and I'm VERY curious as to why.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they ended our previous alliance with them because they felt we weren't Arpking.
Yet they are allowed?

Hmm...

Anyone who thinks we should kill EPers is proving that statement true.

We're the Wilderness Guardians. And here we are, trying to make excuses and bend our morals to get pixels.

We're the Wilderness Guardians to only those who need guarding.
As you've said,

So what exactly is a "random" ?
If they're not skilling or PKing, what other reason is there to be in a PvP world?
As Flame Outlaw said,

The ONLY reason to be gaining EP is to kill others.
It literally has no other use.
Why would a "random" be gaining EP then? To mine rocks? Cut trees?
No.
76king is a PvP activity and it is definitely not random or innocent.

You're focusing on the killing bit. You're forgetting the endgame of EPing.

TO MAKE MONEY.

When was that a crime?

Making money by killing other players.
That would classify them as PKers, and therefore free game.

But they don't kill innocents. They'd have to kill someone who was risking to even get a drop.

We kill other players on raids. Does that make us free game, and should we start BSing each other for it?

Your logic is simply invalid.

Rofl no... We PK as a clan.
We don't PK each other because it's against OUR rules.
EPers DO kill someone who is risking... that's the point of 76king.
They don't have to kill innocents to be a target.
If they're involved in any kind of PvP activity they are asking to be killed.

1- They don't have to kill innocents to be a target. They have to be prepared for a fight to be a target.
2- We're involved in PvP activity - are we asking to be killed? I'm not

1- They are prepared for a fight since they're in PvP with the intention of killing someone in the future. As I said, if they're not skilling or PKing, what are they doing? All other activities can be done in a safe world.
2- Um yes, when you step into PvP, you are accepting the fact a giant clan may appear and kill you. It will not always happen but it is certainly a possibility. If you didn't want to die you wouldn't even think about going to PvP.

Making money. 76ks are a moneymaking method. They have nothing to do with killing innocents, and we can't assume that they do because it's illogical as well as immoral.

and those who enter the Wilderness to kill for fun have no business with this clan whatsoever.

Must I say it again?
76King is a moneymaking method that involves killing other players.
It doesn't matter WHO they're going to kill.
Whether they go kill an innocent or another PKer, it doesn't matter.

When the rules say:

That's the thing: they ARE there for a fight. 76King is PvP.

76kers aren't there for a fight. They're there to gain EP. They have no food or gear.

When they gear up and then go looking for a fight, THEN they're game.

But again, they HAVE to go fight.
As I said earlier, killing is the only use for EP.
If you kill them while they're getting it or when they're trying to use it their goal remains the same.

And no, they almost always bring food and more often then not armor.

You're my hero, Randy, I tried making this point earlier.

I say we have it settled as a pole, for those higher plus, that have been in WG for awhile.

And what if they just kill someone who's agreed to triangle? Honest moneymaking, no innocents harmed, and doesn't break any rules.

Then they're prepared for a fight in which case by all means kill them. But a no itemer without food, weapons or armour and clearly not botting or afk is no-go in my opinion.

Triangling is nothing more than PKing with trust involved.
It makes you money by abusing the PvP system.
Since triangling is not an official (meaning intended by Jagex) way of making money, players who decide to risk 76k in PvP are fair game to the rest of us.

to be continued, got appointment thing brb

Until 2007, neither were clans in general, we can't judge off that. 76ks aren't abuse of the PvP system - it's adaptation. If it was abuse, we'd all be banned. That's like saying clanning is an abuse of the game, because it wasn't originally designed for it.

Just because Jagex doesn't give the green light doesn't mean it's wrong to do it.

LOL Seriously, that has to be one of the worst statements. It makes no sense at all. I hate the wild and the only reason I ever go is that I love the clan. But on occasion I will simply go to the wild to kill for fun or die. Not to often but I do it sometimes. I also shear sheep, pick flax or have a house party. All which are not really money makers but can be entertaining.

How is a player cheating the system in Runescape by following the mechanics set obviously in place by the developers? The system itself has been laid out before us as it is, 76king was an obvious route that players could take on day one of PvP worlds being released. Jagex sees this as breaking the rules, but is it? Is a system flawed in the first place then become our responsibility to fix? No, the answer is not. If they want to ban someone or give someone black marks for breaking their defined rules then they can. It is not our responsibility to police a broken system. We are not the beta testers, we are the players. Do we report the player 76king if they want to enforce this rule so much? We easily outnumber a 76ker after we kill them why not report. Isn't it against the rules? How many of you actually do that? Raise your hand now.

We as the players must retain honor in the system laid out before us. Why? Well we laid out the system before us since the beginning to develop a code of honor and moral values within the context of the game. Arpking, invented by us, within the game mechanics. Honor within the game mechanics.

One could say back then that Arpking shouldn't be allowed because skillers risk going into the Wilderness. They are gaining by being there and us as pkers should be there to kill them for this to have merit. If the rewards are that valuable there must be a price to pay. It is their choice to be there by the mechanics and system in place under the pking system in place they aknowledge that they may die by a pker. Is this not the same of EPing? Is the advantage of skilling back a few years back equivalent to the present inflated economy of RS?

Yet the area is more gray still because some may be using this EP not in a balanced exchange but to pk themselves. So since we acknowledge EPing as a way to gain an advantage through the use of the wilderness bh world or of pvp worlds is it not so far different than the advantage that skillers have gained in the past in the wilderness? Sure the benefit seems bigger because drops can go up to 10m or so, yet most average around 400k-1m maybe if that. In an inflated economy that RS has at this moment in time that makes up for say the difference mining Runes ores years back.

Is it honorable to kill someone that may be simply making a 76king exchange with his friend? Isn't a balanced exchange fair among both players? How is that honorable to disrupt that? Who are we to interpret the difference and assume that all EPers should be punished. Shouldn't we instead acknowledge that there is a chance they are doing this in the spirit of equal exchange? An exchange that is equal to the reward that skillers gained from venturing into the wilderness. Didn't we used to protect that?

Our history is to be an honorable clan. Though we sometimes waiver from the path. Question it, argue it, or even bend and break it. Though bent or broken our pieces should never lay scattered. Hold those pieces of honor intact, bring them together reforge them in a new era stronger than before. We are players, we play within the mechanics and physical walls of the game. The developers never wrote honor into their player guide, they physically made it but they do not define it's spirit. We do. We embody this spirit everyday that we play.

Paragraphs are your friend, I was gasping for breath just reading that