[Recap] WG vs KO - Victory_[Updated]

No i disagree with you fully.
It's positive thinking that has gotten us out of every mess in history.
When people start talking like that, we slump.

How did we get out of our slump in Turning Tides?
We prepared for victory and we were positive.

Forgive me for being optimistic, but I see such great promise, which is why I get so angry.
If I didn't see us as amoung the best, why would I try so hard to prove it?

We also warred Dangerous Business.
Kill Orgy is a top (#4 or 5) P2P team with a good amount of members from DF and other top clans.

Having a full out war every weekend isn't enough time to work on our weaknesses considering they last about 5 minutes.

No one in WG wants us to become a F2P powerhouse. I agree with lee, top tier F2P is not a fun place that we want WG to be in. We dont want 6 hour long f2p PKRIS and F2P Raids. They're not fun. Its long, boring, and requires numbers we dont have. But it is undeniable that F2P builds important skills that EVERYONE needs to have in order to improve . If you cant handle F2P, how the hell do you expect to compete in P2P?

If you want to suceed in today's clan world, you will not do it with numbers. Go ahead and try, and watch WG turn into the failure that RDK was. You can have all the numbers in the world, but if your organization and skill suck, you will still lose. You think that numbers will save you in the end? Wait until WG fights someone that can actually compete with us and tell me how fun it is when you lose with +15 people over them (Eternity). Then compare it to how much fun it is when you beat a clan that can barely match you in the first place when you have a +15 man advantage over them (Gladz)

The fact that P2P does not rely on numbers is why our switch from F2P to P2P when I was Warlord suceeded. We had tons of matched fights in both F2P and P2P, coupled along with raids. We had weekly tank practices, both in F2P and P2P that practiced core warring skills. We had guides and videos up informing and educating newer warrers. Any raid leader or any person who has talked to me know that my focus my entire time as Warlord was to improve the quality of the members. Once we had that accomplished, THEN we started venturing to much more difficult fights. Not vise versa.

That is why we suceeded. You guys have the capacity to pull much more than we did. A major difference between now and then though, is that we made our numbers count. Now, you guys rely on quantity, but back then, we relied on our quality. Each WG member could tank, pile, transition, and keep up with all the commands leader gave them without fail. Members were constantly drilled in F2P and P2P. its the reason why when we fought 40 Distortion + Friends with only 25 WG, we won.

Gene keeps making this big wars that hypes everyone up and gives us a great boost, but we are missing the critical things that let it continue. People are obssessed with getting our name out there, and continuing the flow. As a result, we get PKRIs and more Fullouts. If the quality of our fighters is lacking, what do you think will happen? Failure. All that momentum is drained into nothing, because numbers will not give us a victory. You NEED quality to succeed. Look at the last major wars; turning tides, the great war, and ask yourself why it was only temporary.

Over the past 3 years, I have watched and analyzed WG's slumps and growths. I've watched the individual styles and focuses of many Warlords and Raid leaders, and I've seen their weaknesses and strengths. You guys have all the ingredients and setup for success. I'm telling you guys the recipe.

Summary:
Do plenty of matched opts both in F2P and P2P. Single Target for now.
Continue P2P raids, but matched fights have priority.
Stay away from F2P raids and PKRIs.
Stay away from F2P fullouts for now.
Stay away from P2P fullouts for now.

Educate members; every member can be taught. Everyone must know how to tank, and be able to tank. Guides/Videos/Matched fights need to be provided.

Raid leaders need to be wiser in picking fights. Many fights recently have been highly questionable.

You cannot run. If you want to get better, there is no other way; eventually, it will be inevitable.
If you continue to rely on numbers and nothing else, you will not succeed.

You aren't all of WG.


This is Staff. Raid Leaders/Warlords. Entertaining the idea and actually seriously talking about it would be a good idea. With the intention of actually doing that. Haven't seen that.

ALL OF WG MUST DEVELOP WARRING SKILLS AND MATCHED IS THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO DO THAT

Then watch another slump. This isn't the summer where you'll pick up members like its nothing. Take things slowly, and have patience on working on it. I couldn't have said it better myself than Kevin did, and I'm not going to waste my time typing it all out. If you want to know whats good for this clan, read up.

Yo WG, I’m really happy for you…I’ll let you finish. But Vephy/Nick had one of the best posts of all time! One of the best posts of all time!

I agree with Nick.
Although we shouldn't start with Time limit wars in F2p because those are bad and they last too long.
Infact we should fight in the wilderness against clans that are like us and we should spend some time hyping it up.
Because F2p is the basics and WG NEEDS to get back to the basics to get the newer people used to warring in both styles instead of telling them "Here's a D-scimmy, don't die".
And those "2005 gear requirement" and "Cash limit" wars have got to go, because I remember being told "Yea, this fight has a 250k limit" and I didn't know what the fuck to bring and I'm still relatively new to P2p.
So, once again.
Start with the basics and start hyping F2p until we know for sure we are good enough to NOT rely on numbers and numbers alone.

It was Dragonwood. Ironically, they were our first choice for The Great War.

I see Nick's side of things. We win by outpulling right now, and our individual skill is lacking.

But people are saying go F2P and do matched opts. I respectfully disagree.

If we turn up to a matched fight with 15 people and they all die as is expected, I honestly don't think that's going to help. We want them to train and get better at eating and tanking and hugging and dragging... but you can't exactly learn that with one war. Expect a streak of defeats, with members losing motivation and interest in even showing up for wars, simply because they know it will be a loss. Maybe it is their fault, but throwing them onto the battlefield and trying to force them to train... does it really help? Oh wait, never mind... most of them are going to get cut anyway in a matched. With a nice losing streak under our belt, we'd slump and die IMO.

Gene says go down the optimistic route. Now to me, optimistic means victories. And if we have to take our traditional Megawar route of outpulling to win... by all means do it. The way I see it, we're winning the wars for a start. Now, the people who actually have skill in warring manage to tank and stay alive. So obviously, the clan we're fighting will choose to pile the inexperienced, and by inexperienced I mean low-leveled. So what happens to those members? Well... honestly, would you be more motivated to train to get better at warring with a clan on a winning streak or a losing streak?

I'd rather not go from winning P2P full-outs across the board to losing F2P matched opts. I honestly don't think it will work. I've backed up my argument by common sense and simple logic. And I don't need to provide any more evidence than our 2010 history of wars starting with The Great War. We pulled 47, and if we'd fought DB we would have won. We won with the Turning Tides. We won with Gladz. We won with AA (Because they're idiots). And after an 8 month slump, can't you call that an improvement?

Whereas everyone who says "Let's do F2P matched opts because our members will get better" fails to provide any explanation or any substantial evidence to back up the claim that losing miniwars somehow improves individual skill.

I'm sorry but it's just common sense.

Keanu, I have to disagree with you on this just for the simple fact that "Matched" fights aren't always needed in f2p.
If we outpull in f2p that's only half the battle, the other half is getting organized properly during the fight instead of pussy-footing around like the last few F2p fights we've had, I mean we've not taken them seriously like we do P2p and we lost.
There's an area we also need to work on.

Losses lead to mistakes and people learn from mistakes.
Therefore I'd be fine with losing a few wars to find out where out weaknesses are.

Correction: losses lead to demotivation, losing streaks, slumps and death.

Source: We just had eight months of losses and got fuck all out of it till Gene stepped in.

Edit: WE ALREADY KNOW where our weaknesses are. It's how to strengthen them that we can't agree on.

Taking a F2P war to the Megawar level... that could work. It could help us step into the F2P area which people seem to want.

Not to seem on a high horse but I think my calls were pretty clear.
At one point the pile was as far north as you could go and I said that several times yet people were STILL not even in the general area.... :kanye:

No, definitely not. Absolutely not Jayson.

I have confidence in our current leaders, they know what they're doing. I don't blame the leaders ability to lead. I blame the members skill level at warring, and the leaders decision as to what to do about it.

All that has been said between Nick and Vephy's post is what i refrained from saying cause nobody took the hint and I wasn't going to waste my time writing essays.

Gene, that is the wrong question. What are you going to do about improving organization. Because the last 3 wars we've lost has had all around the same members. It's the matter if you want to train them.

Also, if you would pick a good clan to actually fight, it makes a huge difference who we fight.

I came up with the Megawar title, so I get to classify. The Megawars are the ones that have:

- A separate forum to be created with additional media (Background music, images)
- Multiple & in-depth topics for gear, sign-ups, details, etc.
- OR a preparation video (Takes several hours of production)
- Extensive hype such as forum banners, multiple mass PMs, use of SMS, etc.
- Pursuing sign-ups vigorously (PM, Email, IRC), including Emeritus
- Additional propoganda (T-shirt raffles, etc)

Not to mention the basic stuff of actually setting up the war. And who does all this? His Lordship. If you want to take over for him, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to pile that workload onto someone else.

What are wars without a few losses?
Most of the P2p fights we fight, we win.
So by stepping back into F2p and doing P2p at the same time we get both, wins/losses and also we get to train our newer members who have never warred with us or never warred in general.
So it's a double knockout.

Keanu, you know I love you, but dear god.

We had this EXACT debate in the previous topic, which I refuted every single point you just brought up again with logic and plenty of evidence, while you had NONE. I'm going to link you to the topic again, because I dont feel like having this debate AGAIN.

http://www.wildernessguardians.com/forum/i...ndpost&p=262047

I would like to repeat again that every speculation you've made have NO evidence whatsoever to support it, while my points have been proven time and time again through history, and actual FACTUAL EVIDENCE, along with my own experiences

How the hell you can you say we're just gonna have a crazy losing streak? You're under the false assumption that we will lose all our matched fights, yet I started off with a group of people of the same skill, and yet if you go digging through our war records for that period of time, we had one of the highest win ratios for matched fights. Don't even try to attribute it to my calling, because it means nothing in comparision to those WG who made the effort. Its undeniable that the quality of WG back then was superior to the quality today.

Again, if you are so concerned about lower levels getting experience, get some fights with allies so you arent so obssessed with victory. And if anything, even the people SELECTED to fight in matched fights need the experience. Remember how it used to be "Lower levels cant tank?" You don't hear that often anymore right? Its because even some of the core cant tank anymore, you cant even blame it on the low levels


Raid leaders NEED to be filling this hole. This isnt all Lordy's responsibility. I've personally talked to many of the raid leaders, and to my disappointment I see NOTHING. I know that Vephy has too.

If you dont fight matched options, then how the hell can you expect to win? If anything, the fact we "lose" at all these matched fights only makes the fact that our quality sucks even MORE evident. Raid leaders are not doing their jobs. We've been harassing you guys long enough, yet all I hear are complaints on how "WG isnt listening to my leading omg, we're so disorganized, no one can tank." Thats YOUR freaking fault, dont even try blaming it on WG. Go make some more raids, fullouts, and pkris, yea THAT should help improve the weakest part of WG warring!

And to Lordy and Keanu, if you read my post again, I did not say "focus on F2P matched opts only" so I dont know why you're choosing to only focus on that part of my plan.

Again:

I agree with what saad, lefty, randy, vephy, and jayson have been saying.

I think we should have a TS meeting sometime this week to straighten things out. I've remade this post 3 times, only to find out that new points are brought up.

Sorry I have to color code and size everything, but I do not like having to repeat my arguments again and again, so I gave you guys some visual aid.

So we lose the smaller little matched opts wars with the lower leveled people and we work on tanking experience, calling, etc.
I definitely can see benefits in this.

Trail and Error Darth, you don't learn if you don't make mistakes.
You're doing a good job man just having a bad start.

Don't give up.

No you are someone that has been deeply committed. It is easy to lose the suggestions that matter in a sea of other things. Keep at it, the best things come through trying you're best to break through. When you do it is the best feeling and most rewarding.

Thats not the right attitude. You know what you've been doing wrong, and you know how you can fix it. Just because you mess up once or twice doesn't mean you are incompetant. Every mistake you learn is a lesson. All the raid leaders and warlords have experienced the same learning curve you have. They made some bad decisions, messed up, or grabbed bad fights, but you learn. When I started out, I was a terrible raid leader.

I totally and completely agree. Regardless of who did what, when, and why, we all need to buckle down as a family and support each and every one of us through this type of this.
I'm looking forward to being part of that family and I hope we all can do well.