War Participation

Alright, after reading Pminogue's thread about the lower leveled members always getting cut in matched opts wars, I had an idea.

I know it's pretty controversial, but the idea is this:

A weekly event primarily for the lower levels (110-) to show what they're capable of. In this event a committee (probably the Raid Leaders and Council) would decide who was the best participant (choosing from only the 110- members). The best participant would earn himself an AUTOMATIC spot in the next matched opts war, mainly because he/she has shown their worth.

The event could be a tanking event, or a hybrid event or both to really determine the productivity of the member.

In the tanking event I was thinking that the attending members would take turns tanking everyone else. So depending on attendance that's a good 15 or so people (hopefully). Good tanking could be determined by how long someone tanked the group. The data could also be used to determine how many members from the opposing clan were killed during that time. An example could be if I tanked the group for 10 minutes, and lets say an average of one death per 5 minutes for the enemy. This means that during my span of tanking, two of the other clan's members were killed. Of course that's is probably severely underestimated, but you get the idea. In order to simulate a real war (if not more difficult), everyone would be in robes and binding.

In the hybrid event, the attending members would be divided into two groups. Each group would have one hybrid whose sole purpose is to bind the member being piled. We'd probably choose someone who had high Defense and high Agility to make it a tough experience and really make the member earn their spot in the war. Basically it would be like this:

Two teams: A and B, each with 10 members
Each team has ONE hybrid and 8 people on the pile, and one being piled (person has high Defense and Agility, as well as Prayer and HP).
The goal for the hybrid is to aid his team in killing the person being piled (obviously).
Effective hybridding could be determined by the time taken to kill the person, or how many occasions the person was able to run freely, or based on how many binds were used or even how many laps around the center boundaries were done.

In order to make this a challenge, the person who was chose to be the one piled (pre-determined) would use infinite run to make things hard. Also, of the 8 people on the pile, there could be a designated one person who is supposed to snipe the hybrid, and then get back on the pile when the hybrid puts his armor back on.

These things I think would show who is able to accomplish the tasks that are required during a war, and gives the member the chance to show that they're not just some low level who can't do anything, but just doesn't happen to have a high combat level.

Not to rain on your parade but I have hosted three Binding and Tanking practices yet hardly no one has shown up to them. The few times i had them hardly anyone under level 110 even showed up to them. If you are a low level and want to prove your worth in a war start showing up to these practices and maybe you will catch someone's eye.

But the difference is that with this there is a reward. This is also mainly geared towards those who are upset that they're always being cut in matched opts wars. The best participant guarantees themselves a spot in the next war.

The thing is, a lot of the lower leveled players might think that even if they do show up, nobody will really pay attention to them. This way, they're guaranteed some attention.

It's shallow, but this provides incentive to the lower leveled members to show up to some practices to get better in order to better in these weekly events which get them a spot in the next matched opts war. Of course this would be open to anyone, but the 'prize' would go to the 110- group.

One word- Train.

I get cut too. What am I going to do? Train

Good suggestions. We should do this.

It sounds as a good idea on paper, but it's very hard to make such events successful - there are too many complications:

-Organizing it so that everybody is notified
-Making sure enough people come for it to have a point
-Controlling the committee to avoid favouritism
-Making sure the conditions are the same for everybody

etc...

We're conscious that being cut at a matched opts war is one of the most disagreable feelings one can get, but there are other solutions to avoid that. For instance, it's up to us to get more full outs, or matched opts wars where the difference in numbers is way less consequent - I tried to do that with MoD but they pulled nearly half of what I expected them too.

One of the reasons of frequent cuttings is that our memberlist is too impressive to other smaller clans to which we could compete in a full out on short prep - thus, we can only fight matched on short prep most of the time.

But an activity sweep should remedy to that soon.

I agree with you in principle Col, I do not think it is fair to those who are lower combat and show up to wars just to be cut. In application however, I do not see this working. It should be up to the leader to pick who will give us the best chances of winning the war. Similarly, if the leader has observed that a lower level is dedicated, comes to practice events, is good at tanking and binding, etc...then the leader should put the lower level in over a higher level because despite the lower combat level the lower level will preform better in the war.

Some people have mentioned that if you want to be in a war, then you should just train. Ussually I am against this kind of thinking, and I have been completely opposed to manditory training programs or requirements. However, I do think that non-cohersive incentives to encourage people to train need to be maintained. While it may be unfair to constantly be cutting lower levels from wars, it even less fair to cut those who have spent their time training so that they can participate in wars. This is one area where we can reward those who have trained for their clan. Maybe this incentive could even be augmented, so that if a person has gained a combat level that week, the person cannot be cut from the war?

I would agree with Snow, that the best way to correct this unfairness would be to simply have more full-out wars, or maybe have more re-matches where those who were cut can participate.

It is rather fair how things are decided. Those who are willing to put some time into improving their combat levels for the clan, ergo them being high levels, get justly rewarded for the time and effort that they put into their training by being chosen to fight for the clan. It's only natural to have your best warriors possible fight for you rather than someone who didn't spend near as much time training their combat for the clan and will more likely get ko'd than the higher level will. Like it's been said before, the simple answer is to train for the clan. Getting some combat levels isn't so hard to do on members especially for those who are under 110 cmb. If I can manage to go from 105 to 116 combat in little more than a week, I'm pretty sure that you would be able to get to at least 110 cmb if you are around 100 cmb, in little more than 2 weeks of training, you wouldn't even have to no life it really. Just maximize your training, that means don't train using slayer, rather train by killing things like bandits or yaks, etc, so you don't waste time. Again, it's not hard to get f2p combat levels for peeps under 110 cmb.

Instead of complaining about being cut, go train so you don't get cut next time. Besides, that'll help the clan in all aspects of war, not just give you a higher chance of getting into a matched opts fight. I don't know, I just think it's wrong of people to want to take the place of a high level who has trained to that level to help the clan the best that they can, to be replaced in a matched opts war by someone who hasn't even so much as put some effort into making their account as strong as they can in order to help the clan in a fight.

Or, another thing i thought about:

Make a mini with a lvl cap, so the lower lvls can show their skills too

I see what everyone is saying, and don't take this as a complaint on my behalf. I personally don't have a huge problem with being cut (which happens often) because I know my capabilities. I'm not an awesome tank, but can tank decently on some occasions (again, not consistently). I also always go as a hybrid, but I have not yet perfected the art of staying hidden so as not to get sniped. However, this suggestion is intended more towards those who do think they can provide more than someone who is higher leveled than them.

High combat doesn't always mean great skill. If you take for instance pures who have low combat levels, but have the ability to take out higher levels pretty easily because they know when to do what, how and where to click in order to move without looping back and such. I'm not all that great at switching the different menus so it takes some time to get my Prayer on when I'm getting hit. Wouldn't it be better to have someone replace me if they could get their prayer on faster and armor on faster and run away even if they aren't higher than me in combat? Personally, the ability to stall is such a way that you whittle the opponents' abilities is more valuable than someone who can tank decently, but uses up some food making sure he doesn't get KOed because he couldn't get his prayer up fast enough.

Zhero06, what you're not getting is that sometimes people don't have the time to train. If you're a member here, but low leveled say 105 CB. Let's also assume you've got a job six days a week for ten hours a day and you've also got school work to do. When you do make time for something like a war (which is taking away time from studying) wouldn't you like to participate? When are you supposed to make time for training? That's what I'm talking about. I'm also talking about those who are training, but aren't getting incredible amounts exp/hr rates because of cost issues and such.

I'm not suggesting that if this were put into place that the winner would replace a 126 or something, but if it's a situation where it's a 110 and a 105, that the 105 would be taken because he's shown that he does know what to do in a situation.

You can't really apply the "If I can do it, you can," mentality to this situation because so many things can affect the rates you get. Are you using Super Potions? Are you using a Saradomin Sword for Strength? Do you have access to the DT Skeletons? Do you have Guthan's? Are you able to buy Prayer Potions and use Piety at the undead monkeys on Ape Atoll? Do you have gear that gives high Strength and Defense bonuses so you're not constantly switching between training gear and Guthan's (if you have it.) All those things can determine how much exp you get an hour, so if you did no, that doesn't mean I can do it, or anyone else that is training for that matter.

Don't get me wrong, I support the fact that training would be a great solution, but this is about the people who don't have that option. If need be, it doesn't even have to be weekly, could even be monthly. If this is to complicated (which I know it is, but think if the effort were put into it, it could work) we could have more mandatory practice sessions in which the leaders watch the lower levels a bit more carefully to see what they're capable of, and possibly call piles on them in order to test them and such.

I like the idea of if a combat level is gained during the week, they're not allowed to be cut. My guess is this would only apply to certain levels though, in order to get them training.

In any case...

I was and still am poor as hell. All I trained in was zerker helm, rune, and d scimmy on stuff like yaks and experiments. No super pots or anything like that. And as to peeps not having time to train. Look at the majority of the peeps who are under 110 cmb, what do they have in common compared to me? That's right, a higher total level. That means they are spending more of their time doing skills that don't go towards helping the clan in wars than they are training their combat.

A week I was aproached by someone from a different clan asking for a Matched opts capped at Level110, however i declined, maybe if we get another chance, you would like to have your own war?

First off, guys don't get at each other's throats alright, that's not what I want this thread about. I'd rather we just look at my idea and take what we can from it and scrap the rest because I do believe that maintaining something like this would be far to much work to put on the Raid Leaders and the Council.

On another note, Zhero, you have a very valid point. If people have the time to skill, they have the time to train. However, just saying their total level makes that a fact is not very good evidence. For all you know they've had a high total for a long time now, the problem comes when they're on frequently and are consistently gaining levels while neglecting combat. I agree with you there, that that isn't something that merits complaints.

I'll return and edit this post because I've got to catch myself up with everyone else's posts.

EDIT:

Warning: #Wall of Text#

Paz, you also need to remember that given Runescape’s current state, warring is the only real clan event, other than internal events and joint events, there isn’t much else to do as a clan other than war, so levels do help a great deal, and the clan environment is sort of moving towards the war mentality. Community and skilling is still a part of WG because that is what we’re about, but remember, we’re also a clan as well as a family and we have to prove ourselves, so levels can show what we’ve got.

Zhero, you need to understand that although levels are important, they’re not the only thing. Dedication isn’t measured by how much time you spend training, but by how much you put into the clan, in any way. Hosting events shows dedication, as does attending and supporting others. Suggesting and providing constructive criticism are also forms of dedication, so levels aren’t everything. However since we’re on the topic of wars and such, levels play an enormous role. You’ve also got to realize that us lower leveled members aren’t unwilling to train, we just don’t get the levels as fast as you. I’ve currently got my character parked at the DT skeletons and am training Attack towards Level 90, yet I’m only 107 F2P. I am making this topic, but am I unwilling? “If you really actually wanted to do the best you could for the clan, you would be training instead of posting things like this topic.” So what say you? Don’t get me wrong, I totally understand and respect your views because levels are in fact a vital part of wars, but they aren’t the only thing. This has been seen in history. The American Revolution was fought between the British Army and some angry Americans who’d had enough. They had no training really, or at least had the odds against them in practically every way in terms of training and resources, yet they won. Granted it’s not the same as RS, but the principle is there.

Dale, I like the gesture, but I’d rather not think of it as “our war.” We’re a clan, and we should fight together, but this idea of “our war” and such divides the clan. Suddenly the lower leveled members, including myself are complainers because we’re “unwilling” to train and wish to fight. This is why I propose this idea, that those who don’t have the levels quite yet (but are expected to gain them of course) are given a shot at EARNING their place in a fight. Sure it’s not the same as parking yourself at Bandits for a few days to get some levels, but is there much of a difference in terms of dedication between showing your actual capabilities in a test rather than simply sitting in the same spot, not really doing much else other than checking to make sure you’re not being attacking by anything other than the Bandits, or if you’ve logged out?

Like I’ve said, I don’t intend for this to be an easy way out of training, but make it something like a fall-back for the lower leveled members. Give them another option every once in a while to fight alongside their clan members, only after showing they can do what needs to be done in a war.

Just one final note Zhero, I’d kindly ask you to stop labeling the lower leveled players as “unwilling” because I place myself in that category. I’m cut in each matched opts fight, and personally have no problem with it because I know I’m not the best tanker or the best hybrid. However, I am low leveled in comparison to the rest of the clan, and saying that I’m “unwilling” to train is very insulting. I’ve been with this clan for longer than you know so I am dedicated. I left for two years and the first thing I did when I came back was train to 100 because that was what the WG reqs were, and currently are, that right there is dedication. You’ve got to stop putting yourself on a pedestal, saying that you’re more dedicated than the lower leveled players because you were able to gain lots of levels in a short amount of time while they’ve only got a few levels to show for their dedication when they’ve put in a lot more in ways that aren’t really visible. Take Robbie for example. He doesn’t even play, but he’s put in more for this clan than you or I ever could. He’s dedicated and has 0 levels to show for it, but nobody denies his dedication.

I honestly respect you Zhero because it’s obvious you want WG to flourish, but I think you’ve got to understand that WG isn’t like all the other clans. We’ve got a reputation about being friendly and having a great community and consistently cutting the lower leveled members from matched opts fights slightly tears the community apart, creating divisions of “lower leveled” and “higher leveled” and “dedicated” and “unwilling.” That WG reputation is something to be valued and we should do a little bit more to keep it intact, so if it means we might not win every single matched opts war, I say so be it because at least we’ll be cool with each other. That isn’t to say we should always put the lower leveled members in because then the higher leveled members would be feeling the same way. There has to be some compromise. That’s all I’m suggesting, is compromise.

I love the idea of automatic placement if a full combat level is earned during the week. I’m sketchy on the idea of just creating more wars to satisfy the lower leveled members because then it’s like “Fine we’ll do this if you’ll just shut up,” and that isn’t what I’m asking for. I’m just asking for a single spot in a war that must be earned. We could even tweak my idea and make it so to be eligible, a member must have gained a combat level during the week to show that he/she isn’t slacking, or at least prove activity and dedication in some way.

ok lets make this easy.....full out wars...we may get owned in opts or have more opts. You guys just better not complain if we lose lots of fights in a row b/c the other clan pulls more like what has happened before.

Kiwi, that's the kind of attitude that will just polarize a clan. There is a problem that should be dealt with and your method is "**** this, give them what they want so they'll shut up, but they better not complain when the result isn't pretty." I'm not requesting more full-outs. I'm requesting a chance for one of the lower leveled members to fight in a war they'd otherwise get cut simply because of their combat level.

This is something that needs addressing because the lower leveled members are no less members of the clan than the higher leveled members, yet they don't get the participation. They attend other events, and show up to wars already expecting to get cut, but go anyway. Why not give one of them a chance every once in a while? Nobody, or at least I'm not asking for more full-outs so the low leveled members get more 100% participation capability, but just maybe every other matched opts fight, instead of taking the 110, take the 105.

Just my thought while I spend 3 mins on this thread.

Zhero, if you want a powerhouse clan, wg ISN'T it.

Okie dokie.

Btw, I like the valid points put forward in this thread.
The "best performer" out of the lower levels shouldn't always get cut.
Also, low levels also get piled first.
So if you have a 110 with 95 def, and a 112 with 85 def + those two members are opting for the last spot on the team, I'd choose the 110, because he will be piled first probably.

So basically its not always about combat lvls, but your stats, the situation, and your ability to effectively use your stats.

I really think there is a way to work this so that we can encourage training, and at the same time allow lower levels to participate in wars. Maybe we could set up a War Training Academy.

Their would be separate training brackets, with different amounts of exp. required.
100-105 - 1 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP
106-110 - 1.5 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + 2xPrayer
111-115 - 2 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + 2xPrayer + 2xAgility
116-120 - 3 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + Magic + 2xprayer + 2xAgility
121-126 - 4 mil combined exp in Attack + Strength + Defense + HP + Range + Magic + 2xPrayer + 2xAgility +4xSummoning.

As you can see, the exp requirements are more for the higher lvls, but they also have more options in how they can get the exp.

In addition each person needs to attend 7 "classes" (war training events):

War orders and formations - covers basic orders a leader may give (this is more a test of discipline than anything else, and should a member fail to obey orders this class will need to be retaken), as well as formations such as DD, multiple DD, box, normal charge, 2 prong change, and tornado.

x2 Hybriding - CWA event where everyone needs to be hybriding. Failure to hybrid or bring appropriate gear means the class needs to be retaken.

x2 Tanking - CWA event that should focus on tanking. Getting KOed, or not tanking to the satisfaction of the leader means the class needs to be retaken.

x2 Inter-clan war - An opportunity to put everything together. This class needs to be retaken if a person does not obey orders, does not bring appropriate gear (including hybrid gear if mandated by the leader), or gets KOed.

Upon enrolling in the war training academy, you must take and post a picture of your highscores page. For those in the academy under 110 combat, for every combat level gained, they receive a "free pass" to a war where if they choose to use it they cannot be kicked.

After fulfilling both the experience and class requirements, you then graduate and will get some kind of recognition such as an under-banner or title. Graduates of the academy will also receive preferential treatment when deciding who will participate in a war.

Kiwi, that really won't work because not everyone can stick around for a second or third round. We always lose people after the first fight.

Honestly when you think about it my suggestion isn't outrageous. I'm asking for a single spot in a matched opts war for the best performed out of the lower leveled group. Chances are the winner would be the highest level of the lower leveled group, but that in and of itself would encourage training.

I'm not looking for a complete mix up and total integration of high and low levels in matched opts wars, becuase I know, and I think a lot of the lower leveled members know that if 3-4 120+ were taken out and replaced with 105, 108 and 109, the fight would be very different. However if you take the best performer of the 110- group, chances are the person they're replacing (obviously wouldn't be a 126 or something) is of their caliber.

Maths, thanks for that comment. It's basically the backbone of what I'm saying. Levels are important, but they're not the only thing. You've got to know how to use those levels.

Btw, yeah its all about experience.

Somebody who just trained at bandits till 123 won't have as much experience in wars as somebody who's 110 with tons of experience. For the big wars I'd cut the 123, simply because I know that I can trust that 110 in doing a good job.

Basically the whole point of this thread is for 2 matters.
- Base who you're cutting on experience rather than cmb lvl
- Do not always cut the same ppl because they miss out altogether

Like, zhero + such - it's never going to happen that we're all 120+, know how to fight top notch.
As a clan, we don't aim to be a df.
However, just 1 example is of robert who came back to wg from df.
There's different reasons ppl join this clan, and being a powerhouse one isn't one of them.
I'd ask that somebody needs to stop trying to make a clan change its spots.

tbh Til I get my lvls to where they need to be. I'm glad I get cut, but dont cut me from tog. I love that time with the clan. <3333

I guess my opinion is one of a skiller, but eventually I will get the lvls to kill too.

Zhero, not anybody could train whenever he wants to.

Some people spend more time on life than in RS because they have to, and some people just don't like to spend their times in RS training their combat levels.

I do understand your point of that being important for a clan when it comes to wars, but some people tend to find other things to do, which all have a greater priority than training your combat in RS .

By greater priorities to those people, I meant skilling. Some people find skilling more fun than training combat, yet they still like to get the chance participate in wars. It does make sense.

No offense, but you guys seem to only respond to the direct opposition that will only polarize the argument and direct it away from any kind of solution. When someone like me tries to propose a reasonable solution it gets ignored.

Your choice, if you want this topic to actually accomplish something, or become a debate about skilling vs. training combat.

Karl, I think that idea would work out great.

But the classes would have to be at set times, let's say;

Hybriding:
100-105 ... 3:00 to 4:00 Est Saturday
106-110 ... 5:00 to 6:00 Est Saturday

And so on, for every Combat Brack and Event,
That would means we'd have to have experienced people leading their 'Class' on a set time until the whole Combat Academy ended.

And if we have new members, it would never end.
So it would be an enourmous responsiblity to the Class Leaders.

But if those people were found, the idea could work out gretaly.

When I had first joined there had been a Combat Academy based on Levels and Combat Levels and included Signature Banners when you achieved a certain level. It also had it's own Forum and everyone's own topic. (No, I'm not talking about OPH)

I always had liked that and people seemed to participate in it even with our requiring them to.

Over all, fantastic idea Karl, with a few things worked out it could prosper.

Sorry for taking longer that I'd expected Karl, but I had some things to do before I go back to the PC to type everything up.

So , onto your suggestion:

I really like it. How exactly would the brackets work? Would it be a weekly/monthly thing? Would you then have to re-do the requirements upon entering a new bracket and possibly being held to higher standards?

I'm not so keen on the preferential treatment deal, if anything they should be held to slightly higher standards because they've graduated and are expected to know what they're doing, however I understand your reasoning for saying that and it's perfectly fine if it plays out like that.

I'm not so sure the "free pass" thing should apply to all 100- members because a lot may choose to use their prize. Maybe make it sort of like a race, or an ongoing competition amongst themselves?

What I mean is let's say we've got person A and person B. In one week person A meets the experience requirements and gains a combat level, however upon meeting the requirements he goes back to doing whatever it was he was doing before. Person B on the other hand takes longer to meet the requirements but also gains two combat levels and triple the needed experience.

In my opinion the only one that should receive a "free pass" is person B because they actually wanted to do better, unlike person A who did it solely for the prize. In light of this possibility I say limit it to three "free passes" and have the awarded to the members who go above and beyond what's asked of them (in terms of combat training of course).

Yin-

Some people prefer non-combat training... The skills sector was a good example of that. I never wanted to train combat skills yet, i ended up doing it.. At the end of the day not everyone is WAR HUNGRY and prefer to work on the side lines. Think about this before you complain about people not spending time training non combat skills, There are over 27 skills a small minority are combat skills. If people want to spend time training none combat skills then let them, You cannot tell people what to do or what to train, Runescape is supposed to be fun and if people have fun by skilling then so be it. I had amazing fun training my skills... now look at me, 2 skills at 99 and 1 combat skill at 99.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm in support of the people who skill but want to fight...the whole reason I made this thread is so that they get a chance to fight without having to devote all their time to training combat skills. What I'm also saying is that they can't completely neglect the combat training and expect to get into every fight.

Hence the idea of creating a training session/competition with judges and such.

I never said I was forcing anyone into doing anything. In case you didn't notice I'm part of the group I'm talking about here, that being the group that gets cut from the wars. I never complain, because it doesn't bother me personally.

I'm just acknowledging the fact that Zhero has a valid argument, and that's something I can't just push to the side.

How bout we just settle this? Bring back the Sectors.

- Skills
- Fighting
- Combined
- Community

I like the idea Colonel, i can also agree that it would be hard to implement.

On the subject of skillers, all i can say is that alot of the high levels do not know what it is like to cut from a war. You come all geared up, expecting a fight, hearts pumping, then your beat out by some guy who is higher than you.

I have seen 120s that don't know how to tank,

-Gunsnblades level 104, he impresses me with the fact that he is one of the lowest levels there, yet he will always out tank anyone.

Along the skilling side, WG is based around a community, if they meet the requirements we should pressure them no more to train. If they have reached the requirements and they want to skill LET THEM.

Im locking this, as i can see some harsh words about to be exchanged.

Sorry Colonel

Re-opened, the original idea behind this suggestion is sound even if somone skewed it into an argument.

Please ignore his posts.

In my eyes this discussion leads to nowhere at the moment, as said before we will be fighting in the Clan Wars League which involves Matched opts and Fullout wars.

I'm going to close this for now, if you want me to open it again then feel free to PM me or another Tertiary leader and your reasons why to.