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[Over] Practise War v Triforce
By His Lordship on 10/06/2008
Wildguard vs. Triforce
June 13th, Friday
10pm GMT, 5pm EST
World 63
WG Team 9 Capes, Tri Team 43
WG attacks, Triforce Defends
Matched Options - Triforce fights with 3 more people than whatever WG has
Binds allowed
Center Boundaries
INFINITE RUN ALLOWED
No victory topic
Triforce ML - http://www.runehead.com/clans/ml.php?clan=triforce
_______________________________
The Tactic
Credit to Stokenut
This is where we practise our tactic.
The tactic is what we plan to use for the RE war.
Make the ENEMY cut the members even though they are smaller.
Picture this scenario...
Each clan has 40 and we have a level 110 as our lowest, and they have a 117.
Our 110 gets 1 hit and its now 39 of us vs 40 of them
But if we excluded the 110 from the start... its 39 vs 39
So we lost one of ours, but they also lost one of theirs... and their 117 loss was BIGGER than our 110 loss.
So if we make RE cut a whole heap of numbers, and bring about 15-20 of our best tanks and hybrids to the matched opts, we have a far better chance.
It is not against the rules.
Might be a little low but consider how much they screwed us.
This is the tactic we will try on Triforce.
Do not under any circumstances tell RE.
Those chosen are expected to train hard to match the levels of RE.
I granted Triforce 3 extra men so that they would better resemble RE's strength.
Abs will be compiling the list of who will make it to the actual RE war, but for now, everyone over 115... get yourself to the practise war.
Sign Ups
80% - 100%
1. Pyroclastic0
2. Mrfroster
3. Robertw56
4. Karel Dude
5. Gorgemaster
50% - 79%
1.
0% - 49%
1. His Lordship (Too Early)
2. Theevildead2 (Too Early, saving sleep for RE war)
3.
June 13th, Friday
10pm GMT, 5pm EST
World 63
WG Team 9 Capes, Tri Team 43
WG attacks, Triforce Defends
Matched Options - Triforce fights with 3 more people than whatever WG has
Binds allowed
Center Boundaries
INFINITE RUN ALLOWED
No victory topic
Triforce ML - http://www.runehead.com/clans/ml.php?clan=triforce
_______________________________
The Tactic
Credit to Stokenut
This is where we practise our tactic.
The tactic is what we plan to use for the RE war.
Make the ENEMY cut the members even though they are smaller.
Picture this scenario...
Each clan has 40 and we have a level 110 as our lowest, and they have a 117.
Our 110 gets 1 hit and its now 39 of us vs 40 of them
But if we excluded the 110 from the start... its 39 vs 39
So we lost one of ours, but they also lost one of theirs... and their 117 loss was BIGGER than our 110 loss.
So if we make RE cut a whole heap of numbers, and bring about 15-20 of our best tanks and hybrids to the matched opts, we have a far better chance.
It is not against the rules.
Might be a little low but consider how much they screwed us.
This is the tactic we will try on Triforce.
Do not under any circumstances tell RE.
Those chosen are expected to train hard to match the levels of RE.
I granted Triforce 3 extra men so that they would better resemble RE's strength.
Abs will be compiling the list of who will make it to the actual RE war, but for now, everyone over 115... get yourself to the practise war.
Sign Ups
80% - 100%
1. Pyroclastic0
2. Mrfroster
3. Robertw56
4. Karel Dude
5. Gorgemaster
50% - 79%
1.
0% - 49%
1. His Lordship (Too Early)
2. Theevildead2 (Too Early, saving sleep for RE war)
3.
By Pyroclastic0 on 10/06/2008
why not just send in 1 person and hope for the best
i sign up anyway 100%
i sign up anyway 100%
By His Lordship on 10/06/2008
1 person, Abs and I agreed... is too cheap and too risky.
No less than 15 I think we said.
No less than 15 I think we said.
By Mrfroster on 10/06/2008
80-100% for me
By Robertw56 on 10/06/2008
100%
By Jayson on 10/06/2008
o great work stoke, thats a good idea, i would like to come, but im too noob 
might come watch though
gl boys and whatever ladies are there
might come watch though
gl boys and whatever ladies are there
By Karel Dude on 10/06/2008
Should be there, but we have 3 wars this weekend so around 90%
By Elyxiatic on 10/06/2008
0%
Uni exam.
Good tactic though.
Uni exam.
Good tactic though.
By Kero2 on 10/06/2008
im going out then. Sorry guys cant make it. Good luck with the tactic
By Zlatan83 on 10/06/2008
100%
By General199 on 10/06/2008
I will be on the road at this time. Driving to New Jersey. This is a no for me.
By Mager123789 on 10/06/2008
75%
By Karlfischer on 10/06/2008
Sign me up.
Going to be honest, that tactic is pretty low, and if you had any faith in your clan you would know we can beat them without it. I also do not like it because it means that more WG will not be able to fight.
Really, how far have you thought this tactic out? I realize that RE has a very high level average, but lets say they bring 40 people to the matched options fight. They have to include their lower levels that come (granted, they do not have many, but they do have about 20 members under lvl 115) while we will be cutting probably everyone who is under lvl 115. At this point our level average will be better than theirs, yet if we just cut about 10 more people triforce will be able to get rid of all their non 115+, and the level averages will start to even out.
Another thing you did not notice, triforce has better prayer levels than we do. Say you cut the options down to 20v20. People cannot get KOs, and so they can basically tank until their prayer runs out--in this fight prayer matters.
Lets do a comparison of prayer levels:
Wg has 3 people with 99 prayer. RE has 7 people with 99 prayer.
At member #10:
WG - 88 prayer
RE - 95 prayer
At member #20:
WG - 80 prayer
RE - 83 prayer
At member #40:
WG - 72 prayer
RE - 75 prayer
At member #60
WG - 70 prayer
RE - 70 prayer
The more people you cut, the more prayer levels will come into play.
I am a bit disappointed in the WG leadership, not only did you find a tactic that does a disservice to its members by cutting more of them, but that could actually cause us to lose the matched options fight when we could have won.
Going to be honest, that tactic is pretty low, and if you had any faith in your clan you would know we can beat them without it. I also do not like it because it means that more WG will not be able to fight.
Really, how far have you thought this tactic out? I realize that RE has a very high level average, but lets say they bring 40 people to the matched options fight. They have to include their lower levels that come (granted, they do not have many, but they do have about 20 members under lvl 115) while we will be cutting probably everyone who is under lvl 115. At this point our level average will be better than theirs, yet if we just cut about 10 more people triforce will be able to get rid of all their non 115+, and the level averages will start to even out.
Another thing you did not notice, triforce has better prayer levels than we do. Say you cut the options down to 20v20. People cannot get KOs, and so they can basically tank until their prayer runs out--in this fight prayer matters.
Lets do a comparison of prayer levels:
Wg has 3 people with 99 prayer. RE has 7 people with 99 prayer.
At member #10:
WG - 88 prayer
RE - 95 prayer
At member #20:
WG - 80 prayer
RE - 83 prayer
At member #40:
WG - 72 prayer
RE - 75 prayer
At member #60
WG - 70 prayer
RE - 70 prayer
The more people you cut, the more prayer levels will come into play.
I am a bit disappointed in the WG leadership, not only did you find a tactic that does a disservice to its members by cutting more of them, but that could actually cause us to lose the matched options fight when we could have won.
By His Lordship on 10/06/2008
I'll speak to more people about it and consider it from all sides.
That is what the practise war is for Karl.
That is what the practise war is for Karl.
By Groedius on 10/06/2008
Ill be there
By Snowzak on 10/06/2008
Will not work, the CWPL rules have been designed so that you can't do that:
| QUOTE (CWPL Rules) |
| Matched ops fight must NOT have below 50% of the amount of people they had in the full outs. This is so a clan that lost in a full out war with 50 people, doesn't get an easy win by putting in 10 high levels and no others. They MUST have 25 people (50% of their full out team). |
If we pull 50, we'll need 25+, if we pull 60, we'll need 30+.
And the effectiveness is also debatable, so I wouldn't take the risk.
In my eyes, the opposite strategy would be the best: the bigger the numerical superiority we have, they'll include the totality of their people present, thus maybe exposing themselves to performance weakness, whereas we'll naturally keep an elite group once the cuts are done.
50% for this fight.
By Randy on 10/06/2008
80%
By Quikdrawjoe on 10/06/2008
80%
By Karlfischer on 10/06/2008
| QUOTE (Snowzak @ June 10, 2008 04:00 pm) | ||
Will not work, the CWPL rules have been designed so that you can't do that:
If we pull 50, we'll need 25+, if we pull 60, we'll need 30+. And the effectiveness is also debatable, so I wouldn't take the risk. In my eyes, the opposite strategy would be the best: the bigger the numerical superiority we have, they'll include the totality of their people present, thus maybe exposing themselves to performance weakness, whereas we'll naturally keep an elite group once the cuts are done. 50% for this fight. |
Exactly Snow. We lose that advantage if we cut more people on purpose, because then RE get to cut their lower levels aswell. It makes a lot more sense to use this tactic if you are the one who brings less people, and so I would not be surprised if at least one of the clans we face uses this same tactic against us.
Considering the CWPL rules are designed to prevent this sort of thing, attempting to cut options on purpose, even if it does comply with the 50% rule, might be seen as a breach of the intent of the rules.
I have to admonish the leadership for actually putting this on the forums. If anything, we should have kept it secret until after the practice event. At least then if someone leaked it, it would just be a rumor, but now if we had a spy on our forums they could leak a picture of this 'tactic'. Is it really worth risking ruining our reputation and possibly getting kicked out of the CWPL? Especially considering the rule that Snow has cited (which the leadership should have look into before posting the tactic) which means that the effectiveness of such tactic will be further diminished--that is if you believe the tactic to be effective in the first place.
By Georgio9 on 10/06/2008
20% I've already made plans with my girlfriend that night.
By His Lordship on 10/06/2008
I fail to see how Snowzak's and Karl's logic works.
Even if we are making the cut ourselves...we'll still have the lowest level.
Say we make the cuts to match them... ignoring the outliers, they will have about 3 people below 116, and we'll have about 7 or 8... as a guess.
If we make the cut ourselves, they lose more high levels than we do.
As for the CWPL rules, I was made aware of them recently by Tmal when we were discussing it.
After this, I obviously cannot take a core team, but it is still possible to take the bare minimum. Say we pull 70 people... 35 is a reasonable number to work with.
Even if we are making the cut ourselves...we'll still have the lowest level.
Say we make the cuts to match them... ignoring the outliers, they will have about 3 people below 116, and we'll have about 7 or 8... as a guess.
If we make the cut ourselves, they lose more high levels than we do.
As for the CWPL rules, I was made aware of them recently by Tmal when we were discussing it.
After this, I obviously cannot take a core team, but it is still possible to take the bare minimum. Say we pull 70 people... 35 is a reasonable number to work with.
By Snowzak on 10/06/2008
Excluding all strategy issues, I find it revolting that we would think one moment to voluntarily cut people just for the sake of competition.
Just because this is the CWPL doesn't mean we have to take a power-hungry approach. We're going to be in the process of competition for a while, and having more people fight'll be better for us on the long term... at least ethically.
Oh and by the way, it also looks like RE are doing the same thing: this fight has been arranged at 9:30pm for them on a Sunday, whereas the full out is at 7pm (obviously their prime). It is possible that they have been less insistent on the later time to keep their best elements to fight (as those best elements are generally the most flexible fighters of a clan).
Just because this is the CWPL doesn't mean we have to take a power-hungry approach. We're going to be in the process of competition for a while, and having more people fight'll be better for us on the long term... at least ethically.
Oh and by the way, it also looks like RE are doing the same thing: this fight has been arranged at 9:30pm for them on a Sunday, whereas the full out is at 7pm (obviously their prime). It is possible that they have been less insistent on the later time to keep their best elements to fight (as those best elements are generally the most flexible fighters of a clan).
By Kiwi011 on 10/06/2008
this is the type of thing that makes me rather just not log on to rs and train.....
this is low and imo against what wg stands for
Ill come, but if I'm cut b/c of this, ima fbe pist. No wonder tabs doesnt go to matched opt fights.....
this is low and imo against what wg stands for
Ill come, but if I'm cut b/c of this, ima fbe pist. No wonder tabs doesnt go to matched opt fights.....
By ArSeNaLfAn32 on 10/06/2008
100%
By Karlfischer on 10/06/2008
| QUOTE (His Lordship @ June 10, 2008 05:51 pm) |
| I fail to see how Snowzak's and Karl's logic works. Even if we are making the cut ourselves...we'll still have the lowest level. Say we make the cuts to match them... ignoring the outliers, they will have about 3 people below 116, and we'll have about 7 or 8... as a guess. If we make the cut ourselves, they lose more high levels than we do. As for the CWPL rules, I was made aware of them recently by Tmal when we were discussing it. After this, I obviously cannot take a core team, but it is still possible to take the bare minimum. Say we pull 70 people... 35 is a reasonable number to work with. |
That is because you using guesswork, and not actually looking at the numbers.
We pulled 68 people last war, and RE pulled 44 to their matched options. Divide those numbers by the total member list and you have your attendance ratio:
WG = 62%
RE = 51%
Now lets divide the memberlist into two parts, those above 115 cb, and those below 115 combat.
WG = 55 (+115), 54 (-115)
RE = 60 (+155), 26 (-115)
Apply the attendance ratio to that and you get about:
WG = 34 (+115) attending, 34 (-115) attending
RE = 31 (+115) attending, 13 (-115) attending
With the war capped at 44 people, RE has more -115s than we do.
WG = 10 (-115)
RE = 13 (-115)
Not only that, but our -115s will be higher leveled than theirs. Since we are cutting 20 people we get to choose the best, but RE has to stick with whoever they pulled (unless they use the proposed tactic against us).
Assuming we get to pick 10 out of the top 15 -115, and RE has an even spread of their -115, the estimates look like this:
Lowest WG level: 112 cb
Lowest RE level: 105 cb.
RE members below lowest WG level (112 cb) = 6 members.
At this point we still have a level advantage over RE.
Now lets say we go through with our tactic, and go with 35 people. WG has 1 person below -115, and RE has 4. The estimates look like this:
Lowest WG level: 115 cb.
Lowest RE level: 113 cb.
RE members below lowest WG level (115 cb) = 1 member.
Double check my math if you think I am wrong.
I realize there is a big margin of error here, especially since attendance spreads are not even (ussually the higher levels have better attendance ratio), but this is a good estimation that shows you just how you lose the advantage if you implement this tactic.
In terms of risk vs. reward, this tactic is completely foolish. The reward is either negative or negligible, and we risk our reputation, standing in the CWPL league, and drawing fewer members to the war since they think they will be unfairly cut by their own clan anyways.
By Back to Own on 10/06/2008
Thats really low...doesn't give an accurate measure of strength for WG.
I'm strongly against this. Is WG now a place so hungry for power, that we forget the principles (ima sound really nerdy right now) of honor that we fought so hard to preserve? We're losing our sence of community, and becoming so obsessed about winning that we're willing to cut our own friends and family to win. We've become hypocrites by telling powerhungry applicants that this isnt the right place for them. This is not the WG what WG stands for, and this isnt the WG I joined.
Furthermore, if this ever leaks, it will damage WG badly. Our reputation has been improving, and this could really endanger it.
The CWPL also helps our organization and skills. If we're so worried about losing, maybe we should be working on prowess rather then creating "tactics" like these. So what if we make the top 2? Do you think we can pull this crap in the next league? As we gain ranks, the only way we can become better is by honing our skills and organization.
Lets do this the fair way. This is NOT what WG stands for.
I will attend this practice, but im telling you right now for all it will do. I will not attend the cwpl matched options if we're resorting to tactics like these to win.
I'm strongly against this. Is WG now a place so hungry for power, that we forget the principles (ima sound really nerdy right now) of honor that we fought so hard to preserve? We're losing our sence of community, and becoming so obsessed about winning that we're willing to cut our own friends and family to win. We've become hypocrites by telling powerhungry applicants that this isnt the right place for them. This is not the WG what WG stands for, and this isnt the WG I joined.
Furthermore, if this ever leaks, it will damage WG badly. Our reputation has been improving, and this could really endanger it.
The CWPL also helps our organization and skills. If we're so worried about losing, maybe we should be working on prowess rather then creating "tactics" like these. So what if we make the top 2? Do you think we can pull this crap in the next league? As we gain ranks, the only way we can become better is by honing our skills and organization.
Lets do this the fair way. This is NOT what WG stands for.
I will attend this practice, but im telling you right now for all it will do. I will not attend the cwpl matched options if we're resorting to tactics like these to win.
By Mangomaniac2 on 10/06/2008
| QUOTE (Snowzak @ June 10, 2008 05:58 pm) |
| Excluding all strategy issues, I find it revolting that we would think one moment to voluntarily cut people just for the sake of competition. Just because this is the CWPL doesn't mean we have to take a power-hungry approach. We're going to be in the process of competition for a while, and having more people fight'll be better for us on the long term... at least ethically. |
I have to agree with Zach here.
We'll probably have a higher number of people than them. Yes, our lowest levels will probably get cut. I don't think that we need to intentionally cut more people in order to try to find a competitive edge. This will happen everytime, and our lower levels will never get a chance to fight in a matched up.
Our lower levels should get a chance to fight, assuming they are still there after we have matched ops with RE. I don't see why we should cut them. It might give us an edge, but they showed up. They've been training hard for the clan, and they deserve to fight.
It also gives them good experience. Soon enough, they'll become higher levels, and their experience will come into handy. If you only make an exclusive core group of people to fight at matched ops, it'll never be any fun, and no one else will ever get better at matched ops.
EDIT: Forgot this part.
After saying that though, I'm not saying that this is a bad strategy, if our goal is to win at all cost. However, I think that we're more than that. We want to be a great fightning clan, but we also want to be be a good community and help out our lower levels. I'm sure a ton of people have thought of this idea, myself included, but just don't think its great for the entire clan.
By Colinwarrior on 10/06/2008
0-49%
I will be at a movie. Sorry
I will be at a movie. Sorry
By Indivi2you on 11/06/2008
100%
although i'll probably be cut
i'm training hard though.
although i'll probably be cut
i'm training hard though.
By Woolachee on 11/06/2008
10-20% soccer practice.
By pur3laugh on 11/06/2008
I'll be there 
By Alexo37683 on 11/06/2008
Will be their
By Crucio01 on 11/06/2008
Sorry cannot come, i am doing as a first resort atm.
By Split 69 on 12/06/2008
100%
By Ssricky on 12/06/2008
0% :[ i got work sorry
By moonlite69 on 12/06/2008
idk yet but im more then likly there
By Gusmighster on 12/06/2008
Have to agree with Zak. Since when has WG been this sort of power hungry clan? We haven't and we aren't. We can beat RE, we can beat them with our organization and toned warrers. We don't need these kind of tactics, it is totally against what WG as a clan is like. And anyway, at least check the rules before making tactics like this..
90%.
90%.
By pk331 on 13/06/2008
0%
girlfriend sleeping over.
girlfriend sleeping over.
By Aardvark39 on 13/06/2008
not sure now if i can 50%
By Colinwarrior on 13/06/2008
I will probably make it to this.
By Snowzak on 13/06/2008
0% in the end. Sorry but France vs The Netherlands'll be taking up my night. 
By Angus0000 on 13/06/2008
Well since I'm a relatively low level and usually get cut anyways, should I even show up to this?
I really don't have a problem getting cut normally because it just means the other clan couldn't pull so well. This new plan is much different. For one, it shows an incredible lack of faith in the ability of the lower-leveled members of the clan, like myself. It also could result in less activity in wars, as members who know they're most likely on the chopping block would see no point in preparing for a war they can't fight in.
I really don't have a problem getting cut normally because it just means the other clan couldn't pull so well. This new plan is much different. For one, it shows an incredible lack of faith in the ability of the lower-leveled members of the clan, like myself. It also could result in less activity in wars, as members who know they're most likely on the chopping block would see no point in preparing for a war they can't fight in.
By Mickey on 13/06/2008
I'll be there.
By chip54321 on 13/06/2008
100
By spanthrax on 13/06/2008
ill be in movie soz.
By ivoryblades on 13/06/2008
Ivoryblades-107-100% im mounting up as it is
By Boogers102 on 13/06/2008
Im comming.
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