Religion

By Yingyang06 on 31/01/2008

This post is NOT a post to insult people, it is a post to aquire one's Knowledge on what type of Religions can be found in a Clan/Guild/Faction.

I myself am Wiccan/Pagan

By Eregion2 on 31/01/2008

Christian. If you don't mind an entirely newbish question, what's the difference between pagan and wiccan beliefs? I know there's a difference but I'm not particularly familiar with either one.

By Zlatan83 on 31/01/2008

Muslim and Islamic is the same :S ?

By Dalejamesw on 31/01/2008

Im nothing =\

Church of england i think it is

But i dont go to church and God and jesus isnt a thing in my life :S

By Yingyang06 on 31/01/2008

QUOTE (Eregion2 @ January 31, 2008 02:58 pm)

Christian. If you don't mind an entirely newbish question, what's the difference between pagan and wiccan beliefs? I know there's a difference but I'm not particularly familiar with either one.

Paganism:

A religious belief characterized by a pantheon of deities largely representing the forces of nature. Ancient civilizations initially had no explanations for natural phenomenon, so it was believed that divine forces were responsible for them.

Wicca:

Wicca is a modern version of the Pagan religious beliefs handed down from pre-Christian times. Since much information was lost during the Burning Times, much has been 'recreated'. Wicca is a peaceful, earth-centered, poly-theistic religion that has no connection whatsoever to Satanism. The polytheistic nature religion of modern witchcraft whose central deity is a mother goddess; claims origins in pre-Christian pagan religions of western Europe

By Samurai-JM on 31/01/2008

That poll is racist. It doesn't have atheist

TBH Religion is a myth, a load of stories put together by drunk guys and used by the Government and Church to strangle the population and wrench money from them while keeping them in a constant state of fear, but yea it's your opinion that counts I guess!

By Eregion2 on 31/01/2008

Your assertion is counterfactual; atheism is a system of belief and is not representative of an ethnic group.

Debate time! I'll have to come back to this as soon as I'm out of class later.

By Parth23 Jani on 31/01/2008

Agnostic init

But its not there so Atheist.

By Yingyang06 on 31/01/2008

I forgot to add Agnostic. Im sorry, and it is not ment to be Racist.

QUOTE

That poll is racist. It doesn't have atheist

Sam Atheist is up there.

By Zlatan83 on 31/01/2008

and oh , no debate please

cant people just vote without having to debate every time Religion is the subject?

By Winddancir on 31/01/2008

*Winddancir tries to avoid conversations about religion and politics.
They all end up as flames and fighting. Keep it nice guys.

By Colinwarrior on 31/01/2008

Well, first of all, atheism isn't a religion. It's ABSENCE of religion..

And i'm agnostic tbh. And since you didn't feel it necessary to include that..i'll vote atheist.

By Yingyang06 on 31/01/2008

QUOTE (Colinwarrior @ January 31, 2008 07:08 pm)

And since you didn't feel it necessary to include that..i'll vote atheist.

I forgot to add it, i did not miss it on purpose.

By Eregion2 on 31/01/2008

QUOTE (Winddancir)

*[color=red]Winddancir[/red] tries to avoid conversations about religion and politics.
They all end up as flames and fighting. Keep it nice guys.

Actually, I'm kind of impressed with WG recently. We had a 5-page debate on religion on the previous forums a few weeks ago with absolutely no flaming!

By Kiwi011 on 31/01/2008

Im Catholic, i also study a bit of Buddhism, like meditating and stuff just so i can focus better and stuff. Catholic is different than Christian too....there are so many fanatical Christian church's its not even funny.....many Catholic priests are pervs though so lol.

But, you can also say im Agnostic becuase i belive theres something there, but not the exact God in my religion, some of what i belive would probably be kind of blasphemy.

And Zlatan, Islamic is fanatic Muslim that believe the earth should be purged of all others. Muslims believes in other stuff thats not as fanatical...or evil... and at a time like this in the world its important to know the difference.

By Yingyang06 on 01/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ January 31, 2008 11:08 pm)

And Zlatan, Islamic is fanatic Muslim that believe the earth should be purged of all others. Muslims believes in other stuff thats not as fanatical...or evil... and at a time like this in the world its important to know the difference.

Thank you for explaining it

By Sir Wolfoo on 03/02/2008

I'm muslim

By ArSeNaLfAn32 on 03/02/2008

You should've added 'agnostic' to the list or whatever.

By Mochacho456 on 03/02/2008

Atheist.

By Gibble00 on 03/02/2008

Christian - Catholic

By Seahawkfan77 on 03/02/2008

christian/catholic

By Mickey on 03/02/2008

I was brought up a christian, but I don't realy beleive most of the stuff in the bibvle. Like, if god wanted us to live in peice and harmony, why did he make cancer? and if he wants us to love each other, why no sex untill marrage? I had a discussion about this with my family at new year when everyone was drunk, they were mentioning the holly grail and things the vatican cover up and we will never see. It's all alot of codswallop to me thesesdays.

By Pyro Blade26 on 03/02/2008

my name is Christian IRL. guess what I am. lol

and thats not why i was named btw. christian is just a hawt ass name

By Wonderboy478 on 03/02/2008

antichrist and athiest

By Reticked on 04/02/2008

Atheist

By Karlfischer on 04/02/2008

Yeah, you really need agnostic up there. Yes, there is a big difference between atheist and agnostic. Atheist is lack of spirituality/religion, while agnostic is spirituality/religion without dogmatism. It should be noted though that there are some atheists who see atheism as also being dogmatic, and so call and consider themselves agnostics.

If you have not guessed I am agnostic

By maxrobinsun on 04/02/2008

I am completely atheistic, not agnostic at all.

I believe in nothing, basically i do not believe in a soul, in a God, in any form of higher power.

However i do respect as i think it is important that people have different beliefs to me.

By Legolas00044 on 08/02/2008

im catholic

By Mochacho456 on 08/02/2008

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

By Kiwi011 on 08/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 08, 2008 08:53 pm)

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

too bad statistics show that if you pray for someone with a deadly virus/illness your more likely to recover than those without prayer.

but yes most of the time 2 hands at work does much more, then again, most people wouldnt even give their two hands so prayer wins tbh

By Mochacho456 on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 08, 2008 10:56 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 08, 2008 08:53 pm)

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

Logic says your wrong - It does nothing, if i "pray" for someone in africa, will it help? No, of course not. If i send 100$, it will help. There is NO proof that prayer works. Nothing. Ever.

By WG_Aaron on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 09, 2008 03:09 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 08, 2008 10:56 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 08, 2008 08:53 pm)

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

Logic says your wrong - It does nothing, if i "pray" for someone in africa, will it help? No, of course not. If i send 100$, it will help. There is NO proof that prayer works. Nothing. Ever.

is there any proof that prayer doesn't work?

I challenge you to prove to me that prayer does nothing.

By Me9alomaniac on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ January 31, 2008 11:08 pm)

Thanks for trying to explain but it is entirely wrong.

I am a Muslim and I will tell you what's what. People who believe in Islam are called "Muslims". Just like people who believe in Christianity are called "Christians" and people who believe in Buddhism, "Buddhists".

Saying that Islam is fanatic is very misleading. Islam is a religion of peace.

True Muslims who believe in the religion and follow The Holy Quran & the ways of The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will never go the wrong way as these extremists do.

Extremists/Terrorists are people who misunderstand the concept of religion and I believe they cannot be considered Muslims for they have gone the wrong way. But of course, who am I to disregard their faith.

But one thing I know for sure is that these guys use the religion as a justfication for their motives, which is definitely wrong.

I'll say it once again, Islam is a religion of peace and Muslims are peaceful people. It is not fair to relate our religion to extremists/terrorists who destroy our name.

By Indivi2you on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 09, 2008 06:59 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ January 31, 2008 11:08 pm)

Thanks Me9 for explaining it a bit further.

I myself am also Muslim, and i just want to point a few things out. When most people think of Muslims, they say many terrible and wrong things. Islam is a faith of peace, and the true Muslims would never do the wrong things that these terrorists have put our name into.

The Muslims that believe in the Holy Quran would never do anything horrific like this.
What happened on September 11th, 2001 was not a belief of the Muslims. The people who did 9/11 are truley bad people and that had nothing to do with he Islamic faith.

Muslims are guided by the Holy Quran and teachings Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Just next time you see a Muslim, or a woman with a scarf on... Don't judge them by what others actions show.

I'm a Muslim, i've been in this clan a year. Would you see me as a terrorist? Would you say i am a bad person?

~Saad

By Sir Wolfoo on 09/02/2008

Before 9/11 everyone saw Islam as just another one of the worlds religion. After the events of 9/11 many say islam is a religion of war, is bad, is terrorism and whatever...just because of the actions of the few people.

By Yingyang06 on 09/02/2008

Only a small minority of those who are Muslim faith call themselve's Terrorists. A Terrorist is someone who strikes fear into someone else. Those who follow their faith seriously will not try to force their religion on others.

It does not matter what faith you are but the way you act towards other religions. I get on well with all religions, i am a Wiccan/Pagan and get on well with most religions apart from those who try to force their religion onto me.

By Mochacho456 on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 09, 2008 04:37 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 09, 2008 03:09 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 08, 2008 10:56 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 08, 2008 08:53 pm)

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

Logic says your wrong - It does nothing, if i "pray" for someone in africa, will it help? No, of course not. If i send 100$, it will help. There is NO proof that prayer works. Nothing. Ever.

is there any proof that prayer doesn't work?

I challenge you to prove to me that prayer does nothing.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/188/story_18848_1.html

Confirms that it has a negative effect when the person knows they are being prayed for. Those who do not know, or do not have those praying, has no effect.

"A major study of Christian intercessory prayer for cardiac patients has found no significant effect on reducing complications but patients who knew they were receiving the prayer had a slightly higher rate of complications.

The study comes after at least five previous studies that found varying results. Three did not report success with intercessory prayer but two did.

The latest study, released Thursday (March 30), was the most extensive. It involved 1,802 coronary artery bypass graft surgery patients from six hospitals who were divided into three groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after learning they might or might not be prayed for by others; 597 did not receive prayer after being told they might or might not receive it; 601 received intercessory prayer after learning they would receive it.

Investigators found that complications occurred in 52 percent of the first group, 51 percent of the second group and 59 percent in the third group.

He said it is possible that patients' knowledge that they were the subject of intercessory prayer "might have induced a form of performance anxiety or made them feel doubtful about their outcome."

By Pazenon on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Yingyang06 @ February 09, 2008 02:49 pm)

What are you trying to say? I don't really get you. Is the point you're trying to make close to being against Muslims because "they try to force their religion into you"?

And yes I am a Muslim too.

By Kiwi011 on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 09, 2008 06:59 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ January 31, 2008 11:08 pm)

actually i was correct, you just interpreted/read it wrong. Again i will say it again-

look at it this way
Islam has the Extremists and the Muslims, majority, large majority are Muslim.

Muslims are the branches of Islam, Sunni, Shea, Kurd? and some others maybe that I'm not sure about. They believe in the good stuff and not in causing chaos and destroying all other religions, infidels and more in peace. Right?

Extremists are called Islamics. They misinterpret most of the Koran and try to inflict as much pain as possible into others and wipe out all infidels and stuff.

I in no way said ISLAM was fanatic. Islamics are fanatic on the other hand. Thats just what they are called. Most Muslims totally disregard and disagree with the Islamics and what they do. So I will reiterate this again.

ISLAM- MUSLIM

ISLAMICS- EXTREMIST

in one way it can be called a different religion but its really not. But it kind of is with different morals and stuff.

It can be called the same for the Jews.

Zionists- Take over the world, unite it under one with destruction of the infidels to noninfedels, so any nonjew is ok to kill).
Jews- follow Torah mostly and not so much of the oral law/interpret the oral law less....extremist.

do you understand or should i find another way to explain what i was meaning to say....

By Pazenon on 09/02/2008

That explained alot of what you were trying to say. I agree with you, what you said is true. Just note that Muslims don't have anything called 'Islamics', I've never heard of that. They're just extremists.

By Kiwi011 on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 09, 2008 10:23 pm)

Extremists are in a branch called Islamics(more....correct word) tbh. And yes i no that Muslims have nothing called that in the religion, i pretty much dont even think the 911 bombings were made by extremists tbh so yea.

By Yingyang06 on 09/02/2008

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 09, 2008 09:46 pm)

QUOTE (Yingyang06 @ February 09, 2008 02:49 pm)

What are you trying to say? I don't really get you. Is the point you're trying to make close to being against Muslims because "they try to force their religion into you"?

And yes I am a Muslim too.

I am saying that those who force their religion on me will be shut out completely. Religions people will look strongly towards there religions and i have nothing wrong with them.

Also:

Islamic (Arabic): is a monotheistic religion originating with the teachings of Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure.

Muslim: A Muslim is a follower of the religion of Islam. There are over 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide, divided among three major groups: Sunni, Shici and Khariji. Islam teaches that there is only one God, and that the God of Judaism and Christianity is the same as the God of Islam. The majority of the world's Muslims, including many of those living in the United States, are not Arab.

Islamic is a minor version of Muslim where Islamic are a political figure. Muslim's are not.

By Mochacho456 on 10/02/2008

Islam... a religion of peace?

"Kill them, and Allah will torment them by your hands. He will humiliate them and give you victory over them…" (Sura 9:14) "Fight those who believe not… even if they be People of the book [Christians and Jews] until they have willingly agreed to pay the Jizya tribute in recognition of their submissive state." (Sura 9:29)

Hmmm...

By Bambaleo on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

oh man xD....all i can say is....owned? that doesn't really look like it was a realigion of peace.

oh and thanks for deleting my post...i'm atheist too becuase i think believeing in something "higher" is just the BIGGEST and really pointless waste of time lol...believing in some kind of creatures who should live somewhere in heaven? have they found out how to breathe vacuum?

it's like...how many times can actually scientists prove that bible (and other science - fiction books) are worng? i mean i've just read the book "The life of Galilei" you probably know the story about the cristal domes which should have hold the stars and so on...and why there are no dinosaurs in bible, i mean come on...who can believe this stuff.

all i wanted to say is: Believing in god is the same as believing is Santa Clause, i only believe in something i can see, feel or explain. Gf religion.

By WG_Aaron on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 09, 2008 04:53 pm)

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 09, 2008 04:37 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 09, 2008 03:09 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 08, 2008 10:56 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 08, 2008 08:53 pm)

Two hands at work do more than two thousand in prayer.

Logic says your wrong - It does nothing, if i "pray" for someone in africa, will it help? No, of course not. If i send 100$, it will help. There is NO proof that prayer works. Nothing. Ever.

is there any proof that prayer doesn't work?

I challenge you to prove to me that prayer does nothing.

Moch,

That is a study, its a theory, theory means nothing. that doesn't proof a single thing. you can't prove or disprove the existance of God, Superbeing, or anything of the sort. You just cant.

By Mochacho456 on 10/02/2008

You make it seem as though theories are thought of by drunken frat boys after a night of experimentation. Did you know gravity is a theory too? I guess "Gravity" means nothing too. And it DOES prove something... there was a hypothesis, a study, and the hypothesis - that prayer does nothing - was proven correct, with the effect that if the victim is aware of the prayer, they are less likely to recover.

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. And needs your money.

By Pazenon on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Those phrases you have quoted from the Koran came when Muhammad (PBUH) was in the beginnings of his Islam recruitment. Non-muslims weren't only resfusing this religion on them, which is fine; they were also using every single method of torchering and abusing the Muslims in all sorts of ways. Those phrases came, from God, ordering the Muslims to fight back and not stand still with their abuse upon them.

By the way, next time you try taking quotes from the Koran, I ask you to do two things:

a) Get the events that happened before war, meaning the events that caused "violence". Everyone will understand the story then.

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

By WG_Aaron on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 06:46 am)

I could easily make a theory that prayer does work.

Ive seen you in many many topics, and you always pick the controversial ones. I think you like being rebellious.

When you think about it. Scientific 'proof' is just as stupid as Religous explinations.

science says that everything was already here and that the universe is expanding, god says hes always been here.

well stuff isn't just here, and life doesn't just happen. Simple logic explains that.

By Me9alomaniac on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

Thanks for explaining Paz. Moch, for stuff like these, please refrain from doing stuff like that for it will only further mislead those who are already ignorant.

Like Paz already said, Islam was already preached in the early days of life. It is the ignorance that people have that leads to misunderstandings and stuff like these that result in people going the wrong way (extremists).

Kiwi, I've never heard of such a religion called "Islamic". But yes, what you said is right:

Islam is the faith that believes that there is only one God and that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is His messenger.

There are many sects of Muslims(people who believe in Islam), just like there are many sects in Christianity.

I would think our argument is more based on opinion rather than facts. Just like you would refer to extremists as 'Islamics', I would rather discount them as Muslims or followers of Islam. Islam does not preach whatever extremists/terrorists do and I would not want to consider them Muslims for that part. Thanks for taking the time to explain what you really meant there, tho. (Y)

By WG_Aaron on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 10, 2008 10:48 am)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

I really don't see why Muslim and Jewish folk hate each other if you read the old testament, the the The Islamic faith and the Jewish faith both started from the 2 sons of Abraham, Ismael (Muslim) and I forget the other son, but he started the Jewish faith.

In all reality, they are fighing over the promise land, the land of milk and honey, Which I believe is Jordan. I can't be sure. But Christians, Jews, and Muslims have both had holy wars over that area of land. It is predicted that in a city called Megito is where Armageddon will take place.

By Pazenon on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 01:03 pm)

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 10, 2008 10:48 am)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

Lol you sure are talking about Palestine. And that is a long story one becomes too lazy to write. Look it up, read about it from both points of views (Muslims, Jews).

By Mochacho456 on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 07:52 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 06:46 am)

Just because science hasn't explained it yet doesn't mean it wont be. The idea that "god" was here first is an absurdity. Those who follow absurdities will commit atrocities.

And how can you call "scientific proof" stupid? Seriously, your just plain ignorant. Everything good in this world we owe to Secular governments and science. There was once a time when religion and government ruled, it was called the dark ages.

By Bambaleo on 10/02/2008

i actually agree with Moch. How can you ignore something which can actually be and IS PROVEN and believe in some stuff no one, absolutely no one can proove. How can you believe in something you have never seen or you don't even know if it exists...that's just more than lightheaded.

By Pazenon on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Bambaleo @ February 10, 2008 05:22 pm)

Very true. Can you prove that God does not exist? No. Can you prove that he exists? No. Because the only way atheists will believe in God is actually seeing him.
Acting like that is lighheaded isn't it?

By Kiwi011 on 10/02/2008

me9 it isnt a faith its just how they live tbh.

and you science followers, when you explain to me how the big bang occurred from a particle in an infinite space time area and exploded casing what we are in today and a still expanding universe, ill say God doesnt exist and will believe in science only. Tell me how did that one particle get there? Before that particle how was their nothing that created something because the universe is expanding showing it has a start or gravity would have made us all move back to the center of it meaning we were always there. Now people look at is how the big bang theory is real.....when there is no logical proof for it except that the universe started with a particle that no1 knows were it came from.. Talk about ignorant.....

P>S_ How come i cant use the post reply button, only fast reply.

By Mochacho456 on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 10, 2008 09:05 pm)

Once again, science hasn't proven it - yet. But it will, I guarantee.

By Bambaleo on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 08:34 pm)

QUOTE (Bambaleo @ February 10, 2008 05:22 pm)

omfg....are you like....serious on this one? lol..i hope you're not

lol...ok so here we go, there are MILLIONS of things you can't prove so you actually believe in them too? like...i'll make you an example. A man comes to you and says that he believes in drags, fairies and that he can fkn travel in time...what would you say to him? well i'd say : you're fkn crazy mate, get a life" i think you'd say the same. And his best argument would be "it's not proven that there are no drags, faries and that I can't travel throuth time"....it would sound just as it sounds when you say that "it's not proven that there was no god"

By Pazenon on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Bambaleo @ February 10, 2008 09:38 pm)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 08:34 pm)

QUOTE (Bambaleo @ February 10, 2008 05:22 pm)

omfg....are you like....serious on this one? lol..i hope you're not

That's what one does, and happens, when nobody can prove the fact that life was created by coincidence. Nobody can prove your point as nobody can prove mine.

By Renoldojr10 on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 08:03 am)

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 10, 2008 10:48 am)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

Not all Muslims hate Jews, a proper Muslim would have the up most respect of the religion. Up until the creation of the Jewish state of Israel Islam respected them, then some people strongly disagreed with them. Then the attacked Lebanon about twice and we kicked ass, so basically the only reason a Muslim would hate them is because of the invasion in Israel and the wars they began. Some say if Israel was never created there would be no chaos in the Middle East as there is now. Think about it, everything links back to Israel. The Syrians in Lebanon went there to kick Israel out because they disliked them (there leader at least). After the war was over they stayed. Syria killed our Ex-prime minister who basically built the country back from the war. We kicked Syria out. Till now there are bombings in Lebanon. If there wasn't an Israel could there have been a change in history?

By Karlfischer on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 04:07 pm)

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 07:52 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 06:46 am)

Exhibit A. My problem with atheism is that it can be just as dogmatic as religion. Religion makes the argument that "there is proof of god, because there is god", while atheism makes the claim that "there cannot exist proof of god, because there is no god."
Completely opposing arguments, but both based on the logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

Not only that, but many atheists are completely idealistic, and ignore any evidence that runs counter to their view of religion always being bad/evil. The fact is that religion has been the justification for many things, both good and bad. Religion often gives people a sense of purpose, helps them deal with grief, hardship, and death, and has helped justify numerous humanitarian and social movements. Studies show that religious people tend to be happier, however does not necessarily mean that religion makes people happier. It could be just because happier people tend to be more religious. Religion also has been used as the justification for slavery, 9/11, countless wars, and burning people alive.

I would agree with Moch that secularism has done much more good than religion has, however unlike him I make my claims based on evidence and not blind ideology. I recognize that secularism has been the justification for many evils as well. Millions of people were killed and oppressed in Russia and China in efforts to implement homogeneous secular states.

It shows that both theists and atheists alike, under the assumption that their beliefs are the only correct ones, can justify oppressing and killing others.

People do not like to have others push their beliefs upon them. It has been my experience that many atheists try to push their beliefs upon others with as much zeal as religious fundamentalists.

Maybe I too am guilty of pushing my beliefs upon others, however I am not guilty of pushing a belief system. I am trying to promote tolerance, understanding, and respect. Those are things not exclusive to any religion or belief system, and run directly counter to the ideologies of an extremist--no matter what creed that extremist may come from.

By Indivi2you on 10/02/2008

QUOTE (Renoldojr10 @ February 10, 2008 10:12 pm)

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 08:03 am)

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 10, 2008 10:48 am)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

Muslims and Jews really don't hate each other. That it is in 1 part of the world, and it is because of land and property.

Look here, with no prejudice and racism involved from past actions of others. There is no problem with any race or culture.
I have friends that are from the whole world and of different religions:

Irish, Germen, Mexican, Hindu, Italian, African Americans... and so on.

You have to forget the past and stop stirring up trouble. I am not directing this to a certain person, but everyone.

What happened, happened... don't take actions of other people into your hands and blame an innocent soul for it.

---------------------------------------------------------

And Moch, look at the verses that you posted. First of all, that's way before what Islam came to be. That was when Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) first started to preach, and the non-Muslims were being very cruel to them. And so Allah(God) told them to fight back, and so on. I am not going to sit here and type up the whole history.
Go look it up, not once. but many times, so you don't find some BS story.

~Saad

By Gibble00 on 11/02/2008

Wrote a paper last semester on why we, across the world, need religion even in the 21st century.

But, I hate getting into this stuff.

Obviously religious texts bring about controversial arguments, but I think most people these days can acknowledge faults in the Bible.

The Catholic Church recognized the Big Bang theory and whatnot, when you've stripped it down like that, there's really no way to prove that some higher intelligent being didn't begin it all.

I once read Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time, there's some science for ya, and as he said (I'm not going to look it up and get the exact words) even if there was a one in a million million million chance that human beings would come into existence from evolution and the big bang, with the scope of the universe, there would be another million million million intelligent civilizations out there. So in theory, if you don't believe in an intelligent creator, you might as well believe there are incalculable numbers of other planets that are inhabited by evolved, intelligent beings. Not that that couldn't be true, but it's an interesting way of thinking of it.

By Me9alomaniac on 11/02/2008

QUOTE (School_Boy19 @ February 10, 2008 01:03 pm)

QUOTE (Me9alomaniac @ February 10, 2008 10:48 am)

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 10, 2008 07:38 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 01:04 am)

Read it. Don't just come around getting phrases of "violence" trying to prove the cause of Islam wrong, read the whole thing before talking about it.

About Muslims and Jews, it all goes back in history. We wouldn't want more debates in a "What is your religion?" topic anyway so you'd want to read up more if you are really curious.

Anyway, well said Karl. You got your points down in the most mature manner I've seen so far (Y)

Yes, in Islam, we are also told to respect other peoples' religions and beliefs. When it comes to religion, I guess it's a matter of opinion. Some people see it, some don't. We can go on and on trying to prove our points and in the end, it lies in yourself whether you want to accept it or not.

For myself:

Logically,
- Nothing comes out of nothing
- "There MUST be a source or cause to bring them to existence or to terminate their existence."
- "This basic source or cause of the universe is Eternal - has no beginning and no end; was always and will remain forever. In other words, it is self-existent".
- "The Eternal must be self-sufficient. In other words it should be above all needs; it should not be in need of anything. In other words, the Eternal must have absolute perfection."
- The Eternal must be living. "As we find abundance of life in the Universe, we have to admit that the source of all these living things must itself be All-life. It could not bestow life if it had itself no life."
- Hence, "for the existence of the Universe as a whole, we have to accept that there is an Eternal Being Who is the Source of Existence, the Source of Life and the Source of Wisdom. That Being is God."

"The fact that man can conceive the idea of God is in itself a unique proof." Furthermore, I can't say there is no proof of God. If let's say, the presence of hair/fur/faeces leads one to conclude that a certain creature has been there, the footprints of man indicates his route of travel etc. Then why doesn't this magnificent universe, with all its components working in tremendous fashion and perfect coordination, prove the existence of God?

Like I said, given all the things around us, it will still go down to yourself what you want to believe in.

By Colinwarrior on 14/02/2008

Why do we even make topics like this? Seriously..it only creates drama and flame wars..

But, while we're at it...

RELIGIOUS PPL MAK MEH LAFF LOL

By Kiwi011 on 15/02/2008

QUOTE (Colinwarrior @ February 14, 2008 11:59 pm)

Why do we even make topics like this? Seriously..it only creates drama and flame wars..

But, while we're at it...

RELIGIOUS PPL MAK MEH LAFF LOL

ignorant ppl make me laff

but yea discussions are nice....and flamewars r fun.

and seriously what goes on here stays here

By Mochacho456 on 15/02/2008

I stick to what I said. John lennon had it right when he sang "imagine".

By Colinwarrior on 15/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 15, 2008 12:59 am)

QUOTE (Colinwarrior @ February 14, 2008 11:59 pm)

Why do we even make topics like this? Seriously..it only creates drama and flame wars..

But, while we're at it...

RELIGIOUS PPL MAK MEH LAFF LOL

ignorant ppl make me laff

but yea discussions are nice....and flamewars r fun.

and seriously what goes on here stays here

Ignorance?? Religion???

What's the difference?

By Pazenon on 15/02/2008

Debate, don't try to be sarcastic.

By Yingyang06 on 15/02/2008

QUOTE (Pazenon @ February 15, 2008 10:34 am)

Debate, don't try to be sarcastic.

Agreed

By Karlfischer on 19/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 15, 2008 04:10 am)

I stick to what I said. John lennon had it right when he sang "imagine".

Moch, I am a global studies major. I am no expert, but if I cannot imagine the "Nutopia" John Lennon is talking about it is because I have already learned too much about the nature of international politics and global conflict.

With the help of ignorance, you can imagine many wondrous things.

By Kiwi011 on 22/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 10, 2008 09:13 pm)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 10, 2008 09:05 pm)

Once again, science hasn't proven it - yet. But it will, I guarantee.

According to Quantum Physics or w/e its called For a quantum particle(which has nothing, but potential for everything) to do something, such as the big bang.....someone had to observe it for it to do something. Only thing available to observe it would be a being that always was.
The Big Bang theory is pretty much proven, but now scientists pretty much have to agree there is a higher essence, because their is no other way for it to have occurred other than that "Higher being".
But tbh, we could easily be part of a greater being in a little ball that our...universe is trying to fill, since its still expanding, or else the universe will implode and restart or something like that. With something observing the 1 particle with all the potential in the universe with nothing in it causing it to react and happen again....

pretty sure i got the basics down for that argument.

And since your studying physics Mocha, you pretty much have to agree, or are going against a theory with the most evidence for the beginning of the universe and so on.
So much for science?

By Tnuac on 23/02/2008

I see no flaming on here, its all debate. A society not willing to debate will never have the oppertunity to see and recognise other people's viewpoints. Its fine as long as there is no insulting, and i'm sure everyone is mature enough to keep the flaming out of it.

As for me, i'm Christian. However, by how my mind works, and the fact i'm becoming a scientist, its difficult to maintain beliefs. Even though I find things hard to believe (e.g. events in the Bible), I wish to believe in the spiritual side of it. There's no harm in it, it brings people together, and its something to look forward to after death.

QUOTE

The argument generally is that the 'bad things in life' are brougth about by people themselves and if God is spiritual, he can't do anything about it. Not sure on any scripture about sex before marriage.

QUOTE

Logic says your wrong - It does nothing, if i "pray" for someone in africa, will it help? No, of course not. If i send 100$, it will help. There is NO proof that prayer works. Nothing. Ever.

Actually, the higher authorities of Africa will probably take 99.9% of that $100.

There's one question i'd like to ask, and that is where people get the idea that 'Christianity takes money from you'. That honestly sounds like utter crap and never seen an instance of it, please explain any instance of it happening?

By Mochacho456 on 25/02/2008

Why I don't believe in God.

If god exists, why:

Do thousands of children die everyday?
Are people raped, and murdered?
Why is there corruption?
Why do his supporters picket fallen soldiers funerals?
Why are there homeless children?
Why do children get cancer?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Why do we have to fight over resources?
Why do soldiers die to wars?
Why did 9/11 happen?

Nobody ever killed in the name of Atheism.

By Kiwi011 on 25/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 25, 2008 03:36 pm)

however many wars have occurred for reasons other than religion.

and simple. God game humans free will. and if he intervened, he would take away our free will. Until the world truly becomes massively majority evil.

People are evil because they choose to be so and or are brought up by someone with that mind set.

and mocha, answer my last post, i want to see if you have an argument over it seeing your a physics major of some type so you have to take a little quantum physics.....i want to know a side of the story from an atheist since i was told this stuff from a catholic scientist....

By Mochacho456 on 26/02/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 25, 2008 11:12 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 25, 2008 03:36 pm)

Sure, a few wars. But look into the history of man. So many of the wars have been fought over religion, well over 90%. And no, "god" did not give humans freewill, we have our own free will.

Also, try to realize that just because a subject has "physics" in it, doesn't mean that it has to do with math and science. Metaphysics is the study of what is real, and what is illusion.

By Indivi2you on 26/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 25, 2008 03:36 pm)

Whats with the sudden 9/11?
what about WWI or II....

By Mochacho456 on 26/02/2008

WW2 = Religion
9/11 + "War on terrorism" = Religion

By Kiwi011 on 26/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 26, 2008 12:50 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ February 25, 2008 11:12 pm)

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 25, 2008 03:36 pm)

too bad its a science.....

and not 90% of wars maybe a more realistic figure of 60%. I mean the old wars way back when Babylon, Assyria, and other places were around it was all for land and such....same as before. Religion may have played a part, but prosperity and land was the real reason.

and WWII wasn't because of religion, religion was an after effect when we found Internment camps and learned about the prosecution of jews. It wasn't a war of religion, if it was about religion we would have been in Russia when they were killing and putting Christians into internment camps also. it was a war for White Supremacy and an evil dictator just using something to help gain morale for his people as a "for the greater good" ideal. It had nothing to do in the war other than be used as a reason to fight, in a fight that would have occurred anyway.

War on Terror is a war on Muslims sadly, to bad it should be focused more on evil branches of Judaism such as Zionism and extremist branches of Muslims who are fanatical.

However you would be right in saying religion is a scapegoat for countries to start wars and a way to get rid of types of people supremacists seem to want to get rid of because of reasons not known to anyone but them. Most wars are just for land, power, and prosperity. Religion an after affect. Religion is a course to start civil war and thats pretty much the only large religion wars that really occur.

By Mochacho456 on 26/02/2008

WW2 not about religion? Hitler attacked countries like poland to take the Jews, have you ever taken a history class? He had them deported into Germany in to work camps.

By Kiwi011 on 26/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 26, 2008 03:56 am)

WW2 not about religion? Hitler attacked countries like poland to take the Jews, have you ever taken a history class? He had them deported into Germany in to work camps.

He only attacked Poland to start a war. It was a hate crime. If it was religious or caused because of religion he would have stopped with just Poland because nowhere else had jews....or a medium sized population at that. ..It was a way to start a war that he was going to wage anyway. It was propaganda and gave the Germans a sense of superiority. And many other groups went to work camps.

O and yes i have taken a history class, several actually.

By Pazenon on 26/02/2008

Bad things happen Moch, as do good things. This is called fate, destiny. People who belive in God don't whine about the bad things that happen, they have patience where they pray God for a better life, diminishing all the bad things in their current life.

By Mochacho456 on 27/02/2008

Two hands at work do more than 2 thousand in prayer. Your problems don't solve themselves, you do.

By Samurai-JM on 27/02/2008

Watch Part 1 of This.

It will open your eyes. Everything on that list is identical except in names, all a story told to the world for millennia and recently manipulated by political causes to keep the world in fear of nothing.

By Pazenon on 27/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 27, 2008 03:18 pm)

Two hands at work do more than 2 thousand in prayer. Your problems don't solve themselves, you do.

True. But what if you are incapable of solving a certain problem for yourself? Here comes a flaw in your theory.

Prayer is used for many things, in the other hand. It makes it easier to solve that certain problem, or God might even solve the whole problem Himself for all you know.

By Mochacho456 on 27/02/2008

Give me an example of something I cannot solve? Sounds like a lack of confidence if anything on your part. I don't see how praying makes a problem easier to solve.

By Tnuac on 27/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 27, 2008 08:07 pm)

Give me an example of something I cannot solve? Sounds like a lack of confidence if anything on your part. I don't see how praying makes a problem easier to solve.

There's very little you can solve.

Disease, famine, poverty, violence...

Unless you hypethiticaly mean you can solve anything.

Prayer isn't a solution, its a morale boost.

Oh and war used to be hugely about religion, but nowadays religion is a much less significant factor. A lot of current wars (and indeed future wars) are about resources and territory, as population keeps rising. You'll find there is more tolerance of different religions today (note i said 'more', not 'complete'), and you won't find a war which is principally fueled by religion.

By Quikdrawjoe on 27/02/2008

Zionist - wants all Jews to live in Israel aka The Promised Land etc.

Israel is the land of milk and honey by the way, not Jordan. The reason for the fighting is back in the day the Jews went and took over what is now Israel used to be Palestine and now that we got it back from the British and kicked nine shades of hell into everyone who tried to take it back they (Palestinians) want it back.

By Zlatan83 on 27/02/2008

Remember folks, don't start any flamebaits or insult other religions.

By Kiwi011 on 27/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 27, 2008 03:18 pm)

Two hands at work do more than 2 thousand in prayer. Your problems don't solve themselves, you do.

yet, people who believe in god usually pray and also use their two hands....religious people use those hands more often than most non religious people because they care more(nothing intended really).....Its just that people who have a religion seem more inclined to help others for others good and not their own.... Not the rich people giving money to an organization to get their taxes lowered.

By Twizlers300 on 27/02/2008

All wars that were started due to religious purposes (specifically Christian) proves that the religion is false or their interpretation of it.

I myself am a Christian, or more in depth, Jehovah's witness. And I can guarantee I can answer any of those questions used to disapprove true Christianity.

By Samurai-JM on 28/02/2008

Keep one thing in mind. The Bible, as well as ALL other Religious texts, are MANMADE. They were written by people, not "gods", not "divine beings". People. You would trust those people over the truth?

Watch Part 1 of This.

It will open your eyes. Everything on that list is identical except in names, all a story told to the world for millennia and recently manipulated by political causes to keep the world in fear of nothing.

QFT "The Da Vinci Code"
"As long as there has been one God there has been killing in His name".

Is it worth it?

By Twizlers300 on 28/02/2008

You can't blame God for people throughout the ages mis-interpreting the Bible and going off on their own. In fact, the Bible itself predicted these events. And those people did not kill in God's name (speaking of, does anyone even know his name? He does have one ..) they were doing it under the ruler of this world, Satan.

By Kiwi011 on 29/02/2008

QUOTE (Samurai-JM @ February 28, 2008 01:32 pm)

Ok, i didnt watch the vid, but the da vinci code is utter complete bullshit seriously it all started over a paining for fucks sake. Da Vinci wasnt even alive so wtf does it matter that he made a picture of the last supper. Its a damn interpretation with nothing backing it. Its just retarded and stupid. He just made a painting thats famous......and fucked it up

and sam, the bible is made by God for the people of God. But many parts have been distorted by language faults and translations. And the Pope has something called "**** infallibility" where **** stands for the word i cant remember. But it basically states that the pope can't interperate the bible wrong.

By Kiwi011 on 29/02/2008

QUOTE (Samurai-JM @ February 28, 2008 01:32 pm)

By Mochacho456 on 29/02/2008

Wrong, the bibble / gospels were not written by God. IF they are, what about the errors in them, that would render God imperfect, therefor false.

By Kiwi011 on 29/02/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ February 29, 2008 03:06 pm)

Wrong, the bibble / gospels were not written by God. IF they are, what about the errors in them, that would render God imperfect, therefor false.

it was written by god for god by Humans....It was written by those who god had given the inspiration to make one....and what mistakes...

By Twizlers300 on 01/03/2008

Kiwi is right it was written by God through his holy spirit which allowed man to write it down. Errors are noticed because people do not realize the context of what those scriptures were made in. Sites that outline errors in the Bible do not prove anything, it only proves that the reader will only see one side of the story. Such as 9/11 conspiracies, they are all biased to one side.

By Kiwi011 on 01/03/2008

QUOTE (Twizlers300 @ March 01, 2008 01:54 am)

just like how history books now in the US, are totally different from others such as Germany's and Russia's....

By Mochacho456 on 01/03/2008

I'm not going to bother with this debate. If people are too ignorant to look at logic, facts and reasoning, I won't argue with them.

Tell me, has religion really convinced you there is an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do, and has a list of 10 things you can't do?

By Kiwi011 on 01/03/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ March 01, 2008 07:43 am)

has science convinced you otherwise? tell me, how can a single particle what shouldnt even exist can come to be...

By Tnuac on 01/03/2008

Don't pretend science is clear cut either

By Twizlers300 on 01/03/2008

Moch I can say you are too ignorant to listen to my argument as well.

Yeah, I'm sure it makes perfect, logical sense that all things we know of came to happen by chance of a few particles in nothing exploded and formed everything we know of today ... including the fascinations of nature, the intricate design of the human body, and the endless tastes one can experience.

By Mochacho456 on 01/03/2008

If you consider a double absurdity more likely than the idea of infinite absurdities, you need to go back to math class.

If god created the universe, what created god, who created the creator of god.... etc.

By Pazenon on 01/03/2008

God has been there for an infinite amount of time. There is no beginning in what you call the 'existance' of God, and there will be no end as well to the life after death.

You may find this too non-scientific to be true, but hey, it does make more sense than a bang that created our huge universe, and it does make more sense than monkeys evolving into human beings.

By Mochacho456 on 01/03/2008

A shot at science. Nice. Next time your at the hospital, think of everything science has done for us. Now think what religion has done to help hospitals? Nothing.

Evolution makes perfect sense. Evolution has already been proven in short term studies with bacteria and even African elephants.

Those who follow absurdities will commit atrocities.

By Dalejamesw on 01/03/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ March 01, 2008 09:08 pm)

If i understood that, i agree with him

By Kiwi011 on 01/03/2008

QUOTE (Mochacho456 @ March 01, 2008 09:08 pm)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=St.+H...G=Google+Search

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital -yes its wiki, but this is quite correct.
Look under the sections, Roman Empire, Medieval Islam,Medieval Europe.

O yea, religion has done nothing for hospitals and the people in them /sarcasm.

And as i said, if thats truly what you believe, do you seriously think bacteria became what is now today all the species of wildlife on the planet? I believe in evolution but not macro which is what you are saying.

So seriously, how did nothing become something if there was nothing there? Only reasonable assumption, which is studied by Physicists and Scientists alike right now is Quantum Mechanics and is accepted as a branch of science and is a science it would have to have been a quantum particle observed by something that always was and forever is. -Science killed your debate.

So until you can come up with something that makes something from nothing(beginning of everything from nothing because the universe is expanding) I am quite sure that you lose and God is the only reasonable assumption no matter how much you hate to accept it.

By Bambaleo on 02/03/2008

omg...when i read the arguments about god i really just have to laugh...and i wish i could lock this topic right now.

like for example something you can't explain like where did god come from, you just say "there was no beginning and he exist for an infinite amount of time which is easiest to say but you can't win ANYTHING with arguments like that.

i actually can't find any words for this lol....it's just like argueing with a child about santa

By Kiwi011 on 02/03/2008

QUOTE (Bambaleo @ March 02, 2008 01:02 am)

wow i wish i could delete your post seeing as how there is no possible way the universe created itself....you cant win arguments either using science, its a null both ways with no one ever winning because some people are to ignorant to see whats put in front of them and how there will never been enough proof of God but there will never be proof that god doesn't exist either......

By Firelion08 on 02/03/2008

QUOTE (Samurai-JM @ January 31, 2008 04:10 pm)

That poll is racist. It doesn't have atheist

I know that was an old post, but...
Sam.. Shut.. Up.

Did you honestly think you wouldn't offend someone by posting that crap?
I'm really getting sick of you inconsiderate punks doing stuff like that.

Don't let the smiley fool you. You're my bro, and you might be kidding... but seriously, it's a pain to read nevertheless.

Anyway, back on topic ~ I'm Christian.

EDIT: For all you other people - this thread wasn't started with the intention of starting a debate, so this is neither the time nor the place to start arguing.

By T Dwag on 03/03/2008

I think a select people have chosen to debate and flame just for the sake of it. This post like fire said wasn't meant for debate, state your religion and move on discuss politely. There is no reason why you should tell others there religion is fake.

Religion offers guidance and a sanctuary I believe for those who need to believe in something. If you believe in a God you put yourselves in their hands wether they are real or not and that leads you to believe there is a reason for everything, God's will. It gives people the safe feeling that God is watching over them and there is meaning. Religion is the cause for much death in the world, but I also believe it has a good purpose. Such as prayer, many people believe that their prayers will be answered which gives them hope and strength. Moch, that study you said about prayer... I found that very interesting. I suppose there could be a logical anwer. Those people may have panicked knowing people are praying for them, and knowing that puts pressure on you and you hope you can do your best and survive so others will be happy for you. This can raise blood pressure/anxiety, or the cases just could have some physical differences that caused those results. People may also find strength knowing others are praying for them.

I can't say whether or not the world would be better off with or without religion but please can we stop the arguing?
I guess I'm agnostic since I don't really believe in a religion but I do pray nightly to a "force" just because it calms me down. My mother is Buddhist.

By Mochacho456 on 03/03/2008

Religion, in all its forms is based on one thing; control. It is a set of beliefs which is created to indoctrinate, suppress and strangle the thoughts of those who choose to embrace it. It holds nothing more substantial than the rambling thoughts of groups of humans who wished to use it for one purpose or another. Stories and fables stolen from older stories and fables, passed on, edited, copied hundreds of times to suit whoever needed it as a vehicle for their own gain. The Christ figure we know was stolen from the stories of Adonys, Osiris, Hercules, Perseus, Mithra and many more. Religion only works by relying on the past for blurred inaccuracies to become truths. Christ never existed. God never existed. We are a subspecies of ape, nothing more. I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just my opinion.
__________________

By T Dwag on 03/03/2008

It is true that religion has imposed fear and some religions may be used for control... But in a good way. If you tell a boy he'll go to hell for murder, and he really believes it, then he is in fear but at the same time it will prevent him from committing a crime. You impose fear and control the boy not to kill, but he doesn't live in fear because he doesn't commit the crime. I have no problem with religion as long as it teaches good morals, because then only good can result. Religion has its good effects and you can't deny that.

By Firelion08 on 04/03/2008

Lol, I'm pretty sure this thread was started for the sake of knowing what kinds of religion members were involved in.

If you guys want a debate, start one on a seperate thread, don't wreck Ying's.

By Twizlers300 on 04/03/2008

Haha actually Fire I'm pretty sure those debating right now enjoy it because they think they are proving the other person right (you could include me in that too). Ah well it's what all religion topics turn into in RSC too.

By Mochacho456 on 04/03/2008

QUOTE (Sadcon1 @ March 03, 2008 05:06 am)

No, that's the same as someone telling you the only reason they wouldn't do something is the fear of being caught. People should do things because its based on secular beliefs, not religious.

By Back to Own on 04/03/2008

For the sake of peace, argue about religion in private.
Arguments on topics like these never go well in public

By Kiwi011 on 04/03/2008

QUOTE (Sadcon1 @ March 03, 2008 05:06 am)

QUOTE (Mochacho456)

No, that's the same as someone telling you the only reason they wouldn't do something is the fear of being caught. People should do things because its based on secular beliefs, not religious.

Moch, if everything was based on secular beliefs, there would be chaos everywhere in the world in almost total anarchy with people doing whatever they want b/c they can--- its because religion exists and existed that this isn't how the world is, sure religion has caused massive deaths and so on and so forth, but with it at least there is some peace, if there wasn't religion, hell the whole world would be killing itself and I wouldn't even have the briefest bit of me thinking id feel safe in my own home, its due to religion that people have morals, even those who don't believe in it. Without religion or something to follow, we would be in a living hell(no pun intended)......

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it people, don't like it don't read it ......this topis has gone far and stuff.

By Tnuac on 04/03/2008

In discussion of every topic that isn't fully agreed on, there'll always be debate.

Hide the debate, and you have a less informed world who has a poorer idea of what the other side thinks. Misinformation is far worse than debate.

By Firelion08 on 04/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 04, 2008 11:20 pm)

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it.

This isn't a debate thread.

We've had this "debate" before... And - if you haven't already learned - it's futile.
Useless Babble. Personal insults justified by freedom of speech, which, by the way, doesn't mean the right is given to insult another's beliefs without provocation.

Arguing does have it's benefits, but this isn't the place to do it.
And unless you have some extraordinary understanding of the universe, arguing about religion is going to end in nothing more than questions. Questions that have most likely already been stumbled upon.

Don't give me this "get used to it" trash.
I'm far past used to it; I'm tired of it.

By Kiwi011 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 04, 2008 11:50 pm)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 04, 2008 11:20 pm)

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it.

debate is never bad tbh, seriously.....it lets you show what you know, say what you want and other stuff....

btw, this is a debate topic. Its been a debate topic for most of the topics life and ying has no problem with it. And btw, I do believe this to be the first actual religion topic not to have any mindless flaming going on.

Whats wrong with questions? Answer them here and you wont have to go up to someone and say something and get ripped to shreds irl or feel like a dumbass by asking a question the other thinks is retarded.

and as i should put it, if you dont want to get used to it, then dont go to the topic if you think its Trash.....

By Firelion08 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 05, 2008 12:10 am)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 04, 2008 11:50 pm)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 04, 2008 11:20 pm)

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it.

Debate is bad when it isn't done right.

Just because the poster is outposted it doesn't necessarily mean the growing direction is justified.
Even if Ying doesn't have a problem with it, I do.
I came to this thread to learn the the religions of my clanmates... Not to have my own attacked. Hence "This is neither the time, nor the place"...

There's actually a lot that can be wrong with questions.
For one, they're not answers. They also don't always lead to the right answers.
Sometimes there are questions that shouldn't be asked (which is probably irrelevant in this case, but still significant enough to remember).

Ask me a question you think I already haven't asked myself about religion/life.

Show me where I called this thread a flamefest.
You can insult somone without using vulgar language.

I can call you a bitch politely, or I can flame you and call you a bitch. the bottom-line: I'm calling you a bitch.
~ Note: I'm not calling you a bitch. I'm just saying it to express my point.

I've already read enough to become personally involved in this thread. And if I feel this thread should be closed, I have the right to explain why.

I've gotten used to it. And it's getting old.

btw, I still luv you, Kiwi. lol

By Xena1168 on 05/03/2008

Sorry son but here I am again, posting after you lol.

A good debate is good for the soul....for those who has them. I mean, anyone who doesn't believe that they have a soul.......cannot possibly hear their consciousness.......yes pun intended. Im just trying to lighten up the DEBATE/ARGUMENT. The best thing that Moch ( still love ya hun ) can contribute in the debate is to bad mouth the religions because he doesn't agree with them.....More like shoving his belief down your throats too because it is too impossible for him to understand where he came from.

The bible was the first to say......"The Earth hangs on itself"....I wonder how they knew that?

Then, it also tells you that that darkness is in the Universe.....hmmmm, there was no astronauts back then....not even a telescope....I guess it must have been a freak guess.

To me, it doesn't matter what you believe in. You can believe in Monkeys and it wouldn't phase me. You could believe in the Santa Claus and I would probably just nod my head. Why? Because no matter how much ranting everyone is doing, none of us will ever know the truth. Science can travel to another world and back and they still would not know what lies beyond because it is not in their capabilities.

For those of us who believe in a higher being and I say being lightly because my God is omnipotent and there is no words that can describe him.

I understand that it is so much easier to believe that humanity evolved into what you see today...but nothing has ever been found to accurately witness the transistions that alot of Atheists are holding close to their hearts. You see alot of illustrations, but the proof is yet to be found, thus evolution does not hold water to alot.

I can appreciate those who deem themselves agnostics because they do not judge you based on your belief. They understand that to some, their religion is everything and they also understand that even the Scientific community do not hold the truth in everything.

Debate if you must amongst yourselves, but I see this so called debate turning into a witch hunt. Christians should never have to prove to the Atheist that God exists, and in turn, the Atheist should not have to prove that HE doesn't exist. Christians believe because they feel and they have observed. Atheist believe because it makes sense to them. This is a no win situation right now.......just like Mochacho said.............YOU WILL FIND OUT!

By Kiwi011 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 05, 2008 12:46 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 05, 2008 12:10 am)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 04, 2008 11:50 pm)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 04, 2008 11:20 pm)

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it.

lol ok yea i understood the bitch part before it was in such small itty bitty print, and I still <3 you too tbh

but, its pretty safe to say.....the 1st 1 and 1/2 pages are the only ones where anyone says anything about their religion, every1 else just votes in the poll and hasn't posted it tbh.

And the difference is, if you call me a bitch politely by expressing it, then its not as bad as you going to me and saying "you are a fucking bitch go die."

and as I have been involved in this its my opinion that this topic should still go on. Its already a debate topic no matter how it started and to close it now after all this time, it would be stupid and inconsiderate to others.

p.s-Zenia, i thought it was me who said no side could win =(.... *tear*
liked the post though and it made since but either way people will still debate and such becuase they can and will and feel like it.

By Firelion08 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 05, 2008 02:05 am)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 05, 2008 12:46 am)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 05, 2008 12:10 am)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 04, 2008 11:50 pm)

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 04, 2008 11:20 pm)

its a debate topic get used to it...its been a debate topic for 4/5 pages. This is fine and there is no point to get rid of it.

lol ok yea i understood the bitch part before it was in such small itty bitty print, and I still <3 you too tbh

What more is there to add to the debate? It's basically going to run in circles until everyone gets tired, and there's no need.

There's only so many times a phrase like "Religion is a lie" can be considered 'acceptable' by someone who has a religion... After a while, it just becomes an insult...

Anyway.

It wouldn't be a complete waste. The thread would merely be closed - not deleted - and it would give you a better reason to create your own, real Debate Thread.

At least, then, I'll know to stay away from it. lol

By Kiwi011 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 05, 2008 02:20 am)

Exactly, soon enough the topic will end like all others and die off, no need for it to be closed because as i see it. its starting to slowdown(except for now).

and seriously, who reads locked threads thats not a sticky? lol.

btw, i decided to get rid of the quotes as it was getting to quoty so yea.

By Twizlers300 on 05/03/2008

Oh I can make this topic go on for a long time... while involving both Christians and Atheists to see different points of views.

By T Dwag on 05/03/2008

I think this topic has died lolol no one has argued about religion for the last couple posts, they've been arguing about healthy debate

Brandon

By Firelion08 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 05, 2008 02:24 am)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 05, 2008 02:20 am)

I'll let it go for now, but take don't this as a victory, Kiwi.
Stubborn people can argue for a very long time. lol

Besides, I've already done what I needed to do.
*Looks at the dying thread*

By Kiwi011 on 05/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 05, 2008 04:37 pm)

Besides, I've already done what I needed to do.
*Looks at the dying thread*

/me is loik "I Told joo sooo"

but yea. Will probably die, but stopping people from saying what they want is mean tbh o.0 unless its an insult that meaner than mean. tbh

By Twizlers300 on 06/03/2008

I got a topic of discussion... I'm a Christian (as you've seen in this thread) but there is no such thing as hell. Yeah there is heaven but not everyone goes there when they die. Everyone goes to the same place until a certain time. But there is no hell. Muhaha think about that for a bit.

And I'm not joking.

By T Dwag on 06/03/2008

I'd believe that I guess. I don't know what's in the afterlife but I hate it when people tell me that if I don't believe in their God I'm going to hell. I also have a question: In Christianity if you sin badly, like murder someone, as long as you repent and you're a Christian you still go to heaven right? I'm not sure if that's true but I also heard not believing in "God" is unforgivable.

By Kiwi011 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Sadcon1 @ March 06, 2008 03:33 am)

ok well, just saying im sorry god for murdering someone doesn't work. You have to mean it and repent and really mean it.

Not believing in God? You can still go to heaven if you don't believe in him as long as you lived a good life and helped others and so on.

also you have to take in invincible and vincible ignorance and if the person had a chance to see God or if he just ignored him his whole life OOOORRRRR he grew up knowing no God or any good and died, so the one on top is punished, one on the bottom is fine because he never new and couldn't know.

But seriously, as long as you are a good individual. You should care a less about god. Socrates even said, even if theres not a god, if there is, living a good life is worth it (something like that.)

Twiz- So purgatory for life? A man who lets say tortured people for fun and killed thousands that way. He wouldn't go to hell? and he would go to where you were eventually?

Me myself? Personally I think heaven would suck. Seriously part of the fun in life is fucking up. Being happy all the time would be gay imo. But yea i still believe just because believing is really the only thing that keeps me from doing bad things and keeps me going.

idk what I really believe.....I just try to be a good person and do whats right.....**** anything else as long as I don't just disappear or go into a sea of fire its all good. Personally purgatory would be my heaven. Being happy all the time would suck. I like my emotions. Thats why utopias are impossible. But yea......idk...just rambling i guess.

By T Dwag on 06/03/2008

Hmm I dunno about that Kiwi, I mean if you were happy all the time you wouldn't have any regret, so in this state you wouldn't miss your past emotions. I could live for some happy moments myself

. Thanks for filling me in, it's just that some of my Christian friends trying to convert me say, "I'm just trying to save you from hell." It ticks me off that they believe anyone who doesn't believe in god goes to hell

Brandon

By Firelion08 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 06, 2008 03:55 am)

QUOTE (Sadcon1 @ March 06, 2008 03:33 am)

There's a lot of different versions of Christianity. If I were to describe it simply, I would call it a "non-linear" religion.

I do know that it is said that Hell doesn't exist yet, and that, after judgement, those who aren't worthy of Heaven are then sent to "Hell".

---

QUOTE

Me myself? Personally I think heaven would suck. Seriously part of the fun in life is fucking up. Being happy all the time would be gay imo. But yea i still believe just because believing is really the only thing that keeps me from doing bad things and keeps me going.

That's a good point, Kiwi. I asked told/asked myself the same thing. Not that I enjoy screwing up - I guess, sometimes, it can be fun... Afterwards.... Meaning, like not hurting myself or dying as a result. lol

The way I understand it is that the general idea of God, or gods, or the afterlife, etc... is something much beyond ourselves (existence-wise).
If so, that would include being beyond humanly comprehension.

Sorry if I've lost you... I'm not good at explaining this through writing. (I'm not good at explaining this at all, tbh - and realize, I'm a better writer than I am a talker

)

Ok.

Let's just say, if God, any god or any belief in something "more" were true, the idea of Heaven or Hell would be beyond our understanding; unfathomable. It would simply be beyond our capabilities to understand the reality of it... Because it is something "more".

Eh... I'm gonna go eat lol...
If you weren't able to salvage anything from my messy explanation, tell me. I'll probably try later, when I'm more... Awake.

By Twizlers300 on 06/03/2008

Ge'henna: Resting place for ALL people after they die (with the exception of the 144,000 who go to heaven right away aka the Anointed). When they go to Ge'henna, they DO NOT think, live, or do anything. They are dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that "The living are conscience that they will die, as for the dead, they are conscience of nothing at all. Neither more do they have wages, for the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

She'ol: Eternal resting place. After God's judgment day arrives, those who have been truly faithful to the true God and did his will while on Earth gets resurrected to eternal life... NOT IN HEAVEN!!
Imagine, where would Adam and Eve be if they didn't sin? In heaven? No, because they didn't die! Yeah, EARTH is paradise were resurrected humans will go to and enjoy an eternal life on it. Not the Earth you see today with Satan as its ruler, but an Earth who Jesus commands.

Those that don't get resurrected to Earth will cease to exist. I can't make it more simpler than that. They won't go to hell, they will just ... die.

Alright below is a few quotes from a... quote.

Reference to Ge'henna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, first appearing in Mat 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.

She'ol is brought out 66 times in the New World Translation, namely, in Ge 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; Num 16:30, 33; Ecc 9:10; Isa 5:14; 14:9, 11, 15; John 2:2; Hab 2:5, to name a few.

God is a loving one and would never damn people for eternity in torment if they do not follow his commandments. Other Christians get confused because they confuse what is brought out (making reference to Ge'henna) as a fiery place where there is no escape.

Quoted from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Appendix:

QUOTE

The valley of Hinnom became the dumping place for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown in to be consumed in the fires to which sulphur was added to assist in the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of a decent burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown in. If such dead bodes landed in the fire they were consumed, but if their carcasses landed upon a ledge of the deep ravine their putrefying flesh became infested with worms, or maggots, which did not die until they had consumed the fleshy parts, leaving only the skeletons.
No living animals or human creatures were pitched into Ge'henna to be burned alive or tormented. Hence, the place could never symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire or attacked forever by undying worms. Because of the dead criminals cast there were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurrection, Ge'henna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize everlasting destruction, annihilation from God's universe, or "second death," an eternal punishment.

By Kiwi011 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Twizlers300 @ March 06, 2008 05:22 pm)

QUOTE

Fire-yea i understood it, so what your trying to say is Heaven/afterlife is more than humans can comprehend and imagine?

Twiz-seriously? I think hell /ge-henna or w/e u spell it is a HEAVEN, but its heaven only for those demented souls who find happiness in death and pain. Like emo's would go there because it would make them feel something, and stuff......btw your 1st quote contradicts heaven.----Living no they will die-dead don't no anything.
_______

but yea. Heaven and Hell don't exist yet, and already exist. Time doesn't matter, and one time, is all the times. God is outside of time so when you go to the afterlife or w/e you are there at the same time as people since the start of the world and so on. You understand and see everything your life has influenced and everything after and before your life at the same time. Make since? Idk.

By Tnuac on 06/03/2008

At one time I would've got involved in debates like these (fairly recently), but know i've concluded its a waste of time. Sure, a bit of debate is healthy, but religious debate is one with no evidence on either side, hence has no solution and very little people change their opinion.

I'm keeping my beliefs, and don't really care what people themselves believe anymore.

By Firelion08 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Tnuac @ March 06, 2008 10:12 pm)

+100

I was starting to think I was the only one.

By Xena1168 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Twizlers300 @ March 06, 2008 03:13 am)

And I'm not joking.

Very Good Mike.

Hell as translated in some parts of the bible is actually a description of an area where they burn alot of things like trash. Apparently this trash area has a continuous burning and that it burns day and night....however, the hell that the bible is talking about will not come until the end of times when there will be no more excuses for those who will actually see the TRUTH and that the pit of fire will be used to get rid of the extra baggage....aka....can't judge on who they are so I will leave it at that.

Mike you bring up some really interesting aspect of your belief, it would be interesting to have a chat with you about this some time.

By Kiwi011 on 06/03/2008

QUOTE (Xena1168 @ March 06, 2008 11:01 pm)

QUOTE (Twizlers300 @ March 06, 2008 03:13 am)

And I'm not joking.

isnt hell described as a "sea of fire"? so basically you would have the sensation of drowning and burning at the same time?

thats how hell has been explained to me and what they bible has stated from what I've read.

and tnuac your right but tbh when someone says my god doesn't exist, i want to prove to them that science cant prove anything either which i did.

By Twizlers300 on 07/03/2008

Yeah Xena you're sort of right.

That figurative "sea of fire" is She'ol. Gehenna is just the place where all humans go until God's judgement day arrives (aka Armageddon), there is no torment in there. And neither is there torment in She'ol, the eternal resting place. Their torment is that they did not follow God's will, therefore, do not enjoy the prospect of living forever on a paradise Earth.

The only people who go to heaven are the 144,000 to rule as kings and priests over Christ's kingdom on Earth.

Which brings me back to my original question... where would Adam and Eve be if they didn't sin? Kiwi try to think about that.

And yeah religion debates never end up anywhere but I still enjoy them. Those who don't, well there is no obligation that you continue posting on this thread.

By Samurai-JM on 20/03/2008

Sorry to bump this after so long, but theres another you missed, which I think I might be instead of Atheist O:

Nihilism: is a philosophical position which argues that Being, especially past and current human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following:

* there is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator,
* a "true morality" does not exist, and
* objective secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has, in a sense, no truth, and no action is objectively preferable to any other.

Thought I might actually fit into this because basically one thing I believe is that there is no "meaning of life". We are here because we are here, simple as that. The rest is up to us to decide.

And morality... meh I hate morality. Gets in the way of science and discovery, and it's not like people actually follow it anyway, otherwise the world would be a great place! I guess I'm sorta inbetween this and Atheist... I DO believe that you need to make your own meaning for your life, but I am absolutely against the idea that it is preset by some 'higher being'. From the moment you are born, the meaning of life is simple: To Live.

By Terrablazer on 20/03/2008

I would categorize myself under the Christian religion since my family follows it. I go to a Christian church, but I really don't know whether to believe or not, so meh...

By Firelion08 on 27/03/2008

QUOTE (Terrablazer @ March 20, 2008 03:44 pm)

I would categorize myself under the Christian religion since my family follows it. I go to a Christian church, but I really don't know whether to believe or not, so meh...

I'm Christian, but I hate going to church.
There are a lot of idiotic people out there... Preachers are human; they are no exception.

Whatever you believe, you should believe it because you choose to.

I know some people who don't care at all.
They live life in the moment... - They also have very little scruples... But let's not get ahead of ourselves...

By Parth23 Jani on 27/03/2008

There are many religions and each religion has a god(s).
So if you believe in one religion , you think that that god is real and dont believe in others , even if you say you do.

So you dont actually believe in any religion other than yours.
Why not just go one step further and dont believe in that god as well?

By David on 29/03/2008

I'm not sure if this has been said already, but Muslim isn't a religion as far as I know. It's the name of the followers of Islam, which is the religion.

Seeing as how I'm Christian, I'm not 100% sure about that, it's just what I've heard from my various Muslim friends.

By Firelion08 on 29/03/2008

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 29, 2008 07:08 pm)

I believe you're right.
If I'm correct, basically, a Muslim can't follow anything else but Islam.
In which case, the poll is still valid, despite the minor mix-up.

By David on 29/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 29, 2008 09:41 pm)

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 29, 2008 07:08 pm)

I believe you're right.
If I'm correct, basically, a Muslim can't follow anything else but Islam.
In which case, the poll is still valid, despite the minor mix-up.

Wow, I totally messed up. A Muslim is a person who submits himself to God. Hence the putting the head to the ground during prayer.

This is quite controversial, but technically Jesus was a Muslim in the sense that he submitted himself to God, but did not follow the religion of Islam (for one I don't think it was created yet).

If I'm not mistaken, you don't have to be a follower of Islam in order to be a Muslim, it's just that the two words are practically interchangeable in our society that it's hard to believe a follower of another religion could be a Muslim.

So my initial post was partially correct in that Muslim is not a religion, but incorrect in that Muslims are not only followers of Islam, but technically a description used to describe people who submit themselves to God.

By Firelion08 on 29/03/2008

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 29, 2008 10:05 pm)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 29, 2008 09:41 pm)

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 29, 2008 07:08 pm)

I believe you're right.
If I'm correct, basically, a Muslim can't follow anything else but Islam.
In which case, the poll is still valid, despite the minor mix-up.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to say.

So, if you follow the religion of Islam, that doesn't necessarily make you a 'Muslim', it just makes you a person of religion?

By 1l devour 1l on 29/03/2008

I is a christian

FTW

By Parth23 Jani on 30/03/2008

Definitions of Muslim
-Adherent of the religion founded by Prophet Mohammed in the year 610.
-A member of the Islamic faith.
-A Muslim is a follower of the religion of Islam. There are over 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide, divided among three major groups: Sunni, Shici and Khariji. Islam teaches that there is only one God, and that the God of Judaism and Christianity is the same as the God of Islam.
-A Muslim (Arabic: مسلم, Persian: Mosalman or Mosalmon Urdu: مسلمان, Turkish: Müslüman, Albanian: Mysliman, Bosnian: Musliman) is an adherent of the religion of Islam.
...
Dunno what you're on about colonel.

By David on 30/03/2008

What I'm saying is this:

The meaning of the word "Muslim" is one who submits (to God). So technically you don't have to be a follower of Islam to be a Muslim, but if you are a follower of Islam then you're a Muslim.

Sort of like all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs.

Jesus was a person who submitted himself to the Lord. He was a Muslim, but was not a follower of Islam.

To Firelion:

The word Islam means "submission". So to be a follower of Islam you are a Muslim, but to be a Muslim does not mean you're a follower of Islam.

If you submit yourself to God, you're a Muslim, but not necessarily a follower of Islam. If you're a follower of Islam, you (by definition of the word, and if I'm not mistaken by the rules/code of the religion itself) are a Muslim.

By Kiwi011 on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 30, 2008 01:10 am)

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, you like, looking to deep into this....lets keep it somewhat moderate in the extremees and wtf were talking about lol. I mean i see what your saying but seriously, use some common sence to see what were talking about. Seriously.

By Firelion08 on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 30, 2008 01:10 am)

I think I understand what you're saying...

You are right, but don't lose sight of the fact that Islam is a religion.
Allah is their God, and if you submit yourself to him, you are considered a person of God - a Muslim.
In assuming that their god is the true God, anyone who follows his religion is a general person of religion. (I'm having trouble explaining this properly... I apologize if you can't understand what I'm trying to get at)

I am a Christian, I believe in God, but I do not see him the same way that a Muslim might.

Some people argue that most gods from monotheist religions are the same God... Maybe… (Who’s to say, right?)
But in the minds of man, they are not the same. (Again, I can’t really explain this too well…)

By David on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 30, 2008 02:41 am)

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 30, 2008 01:10 am)

How is it you ask "wtf are you talking about lol" but say you see what I'm saying? I'm sorry if I'm looking to deep into this but I'm not going to stop post on this subject just because it might be a little difficult to understand. You don't have to read my posts. I'm just using what I know and trying to stimulate some discussion.

Firelion:

I understand that Islam is a religion. However, when looking at the word 'Muslim' there is no reference to Allah. It just says god, and by going by that meaning, any person who submits himself to God, be it of Christianity, Judaism or Islam, they are a Muslim.

By Firelion08 on 30/03/2008

QUOTE

Firelion:

I understand that Islam is a religion. However, when looking at the word 'Muslim' there is no reference to Allah. It just says god, and by going by that meaning, any person who submits himself to God, be it of Christianity, Judaism or Islam, they are a Muslim.

"A person who submits himself to God"; their god; Allah.
It may sound obnoxious, but that's really what I understand it to mean.

I may be wrong. If so, show me reference to where there is such a thing as a Christian Muslim.

Where are you looking for the definition?
That may hold some relevance to this whole thing.

There's also probably another reason why we're not meeting to the same conclusions:
You may be referring to the word as it is spoken in the language.

In which case, I'll respond by explaining that one word from a "foreign" language can have two meanings (as I'm sure you're probably familiar with).
The first meaning being a term used to describe the subject being talked about. A "Noun".
The second being the title (or name) of the subject. A "Pronoun".

A pretty rought explanation... But I hope it's enough to understand. lol

By Parth23 Jani on 30/03/2008

I'm with Firelion here.
It might mean 'a person of god' if you directly translate the word to english , but I think what it really means is 'a person of Allah(The god of islam)'.

By David on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 30, 2008 09:32 am)

QUOTE

I see what's going on, you looking at this at more of a real-world angle, and I'm actually taking the meaning of the word.

See the technical meaning of the word "Muslim" is someone who submits himself to God. There is no specific God to which is referred, but the fact that in order to be a follower of Islam, you must be a Muslim (because in Islam you must submit yourself to God) so the two are virtually interchangeable.

Here is what I found about a Christian Muslim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Isla...sor_to_Muhammad

That is a Wikipedia article, and in the intorduction paragraph there is a sentence which reads:

"Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will"

Now because Wikipedia is not a totally reliable source, here are some other references:

http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/jesuscrucified.htm

In that article, you'll notice that the writer says Jesus submitted himself to the will of Allah, which simple means "God".

The reason this is so controversial is that there are multiple beliefs of who God really is, so it's hard to make this connection. When you think about it though, Allah is simply the Arabic word for "God", much like the English word is "Lord" or "God". A different language defining the same thing.

Just note that I'm not saying this is 100% fact, but that if you were to get technical it would be quite true, or at least have a lot of supporting evidence.

For reference to the word Allah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

Allah is not the God of Islam, but simply a word used to describe him.

By Parth23 Jani on 30/03/2008

The title of that page on missionislam website is this-
Jesus, a Muslim, was Neither Killed, nor Crucified.

That was enough to make me not read it. The length of the article was a factor too

By rachellove9 on 30/03/2008

I am Christian and go to a holy roller church with rock band on stage and stuff People dance and have a great time Haven't been going lately but it is awesome I went to Assemblies of God School too My beliefs are pretty independant and I know to respect everyones beliefs even when I disagree Imagine a school with chapel day where all the kids raise their hands and sing praises that what I grew up in

By David on 30/03/2008

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Besides, the only thing you really need to read is one or two of the bolded sentences.

By Sir Wolfoo on 30/03/2008

Allah is God in arabic just how Dieu is God in french. Intresting fact.. Arab Jews and Christians use the word Allah for God and in an arabic bible Allah is used for God

And u must know that Arabic is a language where all its words have roots. For example the word Islam comes from the word eslama, which means all these 5 words submission, surrender, obedience, peace, sincerity.

A muslim is not someone who follows the religion of Islam and the teachings of Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) A muslim is one who submits there will to God

By Carrot166 on 30/03/2008

tbh i have never heard of wiccan but im christian

By Firelion08 on 30/03/2008

I see now. So you're looking at the language and it's literal form in Arabic.
As long as you understand the difference between the Muslim (A person of Islam) God and the Christian God, I'm fine with that.

By Kiwi011 on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 30, 2008 01:17 pm)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 30, 2008 09:32 am)

QUOTE

ok well lets see....

A definition of a word is not what its definition is in a translator or dictionary. It is what people think it is. If I call you gay. You do not think I say you were happy. You think I said your a homosexual. The literal meaning of a dictionary doesn't matter. Its what is meant. If you don't understand im insulting you or am saying your a happy guy. Lets see something really really quick. Say we do this on the news on tv in any country. If you say "o, I think the United States President is really gay all the time" you will get fired or puninished.

Learn to look at context and not **** up the meaning.
you are looking at this to deep and seriously. I think your retarded and shouldn't try to explain this anymore if you don't know the difference between the context and the pretext of what is said.
So for literal translation?
IN ENGLISH God is God
In ARABIC Allah is Allah

So God is Allah and Allah is God. No.

IN English, people say God for God if we talk about Christianity. We say Allah for Allah, the God of Islam.

In English and Arabic- Jesus was a prophet
Prophets submit themselves to god but in Arabic they dont say he was a Muslim. They say he was a prophet.
Its somewhat like the Bible in Hebrew.
The word for family, brother, sister, community, friends, are all the same word. But is different. "Jesus had many brothers" is a mistranslation that should be Jesus had many followers or friends"
This is where the 1st problem came with the whole of the davinci code crap.

Here is something that should be taught to anyone debating another. --DONT TAKE SOMETHING AS PROOF WITHOUT THE WHOLE OF THE CONTEXT. YOU CAN NOT TAKE SOMETHING AS PROOF WITH JUST THE PRETEXT OF SOMETHING AND USE ONLY WHAT PROVES YOUR POINT, YOU NEED TO READ IT AND MAKE SURE EVERYTHING MAKES SINCE, NOT JSUT TWIST IT TO YOUR WILL.

By the way, if you didn't no this books like this and the bible were all written with no Chapter 1's and verses. They each mark the end of a pretext. Thats why the people who translate things like the bible need to take into account everything around each verse and chapter to understand whats said. Any good professor in Theology or debate won't give you just a verse or chapter to look at, but 3-4. and will probably focus on the center ones.

p.s- wikipedia isnt even a verifiable source.

By David on 30/03/2008

QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 30, 2008 09:17 pm)

QUOTE (1colonel1 @ March 30, 2008 01:17 pm)

QUOTE (Firelion08 @ March 30, 2008 09:32 am)

QUOTE

I wasn't aware insults were needed, great way to ruin a good discussion, kudos.

Here, look at this:

God is God. Allah is God. "God" is the definition of Allah. So, you're arguing that the everyday life interpretation is not as deep as what I'm saying, and I know that. I know I'm looking deep into this, and going into technicalities, I meant to do that, it was not a mistake.

Muslim is a word, with a definition. The definition is "he who submits himself (to God)". You yourself said "Prophets submit themselves to god" making Jesus a Muslim by definition. Does it need to spelled out for you word by word?

P.S - I said in my post that wikipedia isn't a totally reliable source, read everything next time alright?

P.S.S - I'd like to end this argument. I know what I'm saying, and if you don't agree fine. I'm not preaching or trying to convert you to Islam (I'm a Christian myself). I'm just using the meanings of these words to stir some discussion, and to give my opinion on the matter. If you wish to use insults to oh so cleverly get your point across, fine by me, I can take that. I know what I'm saying is not 100% accurate for I have not read the Koran, or anything of the sort. My information is coming from my friends who are follower of Islam.

I don't like the negativity that is going around so I'd like to just end that on a low note.

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