Kidding me?

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Rant Section:

During our pkri with FT, I cannot FUCKING BELIEVE some people. Some didn't EVEN BOTHER COMING, some people LEFT EARLY (for unexcusable reasons, like hopping worlds to do whatever), and some went off and did THEIR OWN THING.

I'm am EXTREMELY disapointed.

You guys just disgraced WG and everything it stands for.
Why did you join this clan in the first place? That's bullshit.

SOME OF YOU OWE OUR RAIDLEADERS AN APOLOGY.

Dale was telling people not to snipe, rob was telling everyone to go get range gear, etc. and you guys were rubbing it in their faces. The whole time everyone was lost.. like you've never warred before.

Compliment:

Good job Raid leaders, i'm serious.
It was frustrating hearing your anger because no one was listening.
You deserve better from the members.

Grh
I'm so dissapointed to see that this happened, especially after our massive successes at the Aussie War Carnage vs TM

SO once again we see that people are not listening to the raid leaders.
Discipline needs to be enforced.
If someone doesnt listen they are asked to leave, if they refuse they get a warn, simple.

Our raid leaders do so much for us, don't give them a hard time.

Didn't snipe, I attacked like 2 people. I didn't range because I didn't have the gear.

But yeh, people that couldn't even be botherd showing up piss me off.

Ok I've done it in the past but when it's really import, if I'm on, I'll come.

Some people could of also returned... I wasnt there at beginning as i just got home...but we were fighting with 15 people to there 30

Raid Leaders, I'm sorry my girlfriend called me at the beginning of the war and interrupted me. I was unable to use teamspeak during it.

Oh, I thought that I was in trouble too.

Honestly, I think that was purely pathetic. Some people just didn't bother returning. I returned seriously the first few times, but after it looked hopeless, I just stopped getting food.

It wasn't worth it. =\

I'm sorry that you had to go through this, Raid Leaders.

Yup.

Seriously you should have all the people who left buy everyone else back the swordies we lost while fighting without you.

LOL PKRI's aren't mandatory dude. If people were on and chose to do something different, then so be it. Maybe the people online aren't warlike, maybe they wanted to get that level, maybe they just didn't feel like it. All in all, you can't expect people to pay you back for lost items. Don't want to lose items, either don't go or don't die.

If anyone wants to take a dig at me.. Not only did I hybrid with ALL types of combat (mage melee range) I returned 8 times, and used over 230 pizzas (124k RS GP) and used over 100 binds.

I agree. If your on Runescape while your clan is fighting, win or lose, you should get out there and represent your clan. Even the extra person can help in so many ways....extra hit for ko, extra damage, so many ways. But people lose hope.

Isnt it better to lose a war with 15 people or 30, when atleast you can say you put up a decent fight...

I am sorry I was on irc but not in game. I was grilling and by the time I ate and came back it was all over.

I left my skilling to come and I stayed most of the time til close to the end and I got a phone call and logged out.

Randy I have plenty of swordies with my lvl fishing, if you ever need help with food just pm me on the forum. I don't ever mind helping out when I can.

Sorry Raid leaders, I wasn't so good at that dd thing. But I only found out what that was from Queen's hello post. I am not to good at war things yet. If you think I should just stay away that be okay with me. I'm still learning and have a long way to go yet.

Rick has a point...Wg to us is a community a family, but then we all want to win wars...so you have a dilemma really

What pisses ME off is why everyone suddenly drops dead in their tracks and tries to placate someone throwing a tantrum, however "justified" it might be. Implying that everyone online should suddenly drop what they're doing for the day and show up to a PKRI that was scheduled less than THREE HOURS IN ADVANCE seems just a little misplaced to me.

If you had problems with those who DECIDED TO ATTEND AN OPTIONAL EVENT then sure, rant. But everyone who just let themselves get bullied into apologizing for doing absolutely nothing wrong in order to to try and make Randy happy should be ashamed of themselves.

Anyway, I'm not going to explain why I wasn't there, because it's none of your business. We were top 2006 because we had a community that LOVED to war. But that community is burnt out and moved on, mostly retired, involved with other clans, or completely other games. There aren't many "warriors" left in WG. It'd be cool to have that rank back, to be known and respected, but personally after Jagex screwed us over I'm in the "fuck it" category. Right now all those top clans are proving is how much time they've wasted pretending to smack each other with pixels, for hours, and hours, and hours, and days, and months, and years.

When someone realizes there's more fun ways to war than two clans gearing up and piling each other for an hour I'll be interested; I remember 2005-06 when we actually had STRATEGIES that got people interested and made the whole experience INTERESTING.

Fuck standing around for half an hour for mass.
Fuck piling each other like cavemen learned to do a billion years ago.
FUCK THE MORONIC PASTIME THAT'S A RUNESCAPE WAR/PKRI!

I'd already spent about 2 hours today either preparing or being in a war, I don't want most of my RS time spent massing, gearing up or fighting in a war. A war and a PKRI in one day? within 9 hours of each other, is a bit excessive imo. If I had attended I would've spent a total of 90 minutes fighting/returning (Including the war earlier), all the time massing, all the time preparing, and then all the time trying to replace all the food I used, which would have left me with little to no time actually for myself.

When you don't have as much time on RS as others, you shouldn't be made to feel bad because you didn't want to devote every minute of your playing time to your clan. Which is why I only really attend one, maybe 2 events a week. And even then, it's events that I can enjoy. A PKRI is not enjoyable for me. Wars are ok, you fight, you die, it ends. For me, PKRIs are boring, drawn out, repetitive wars.

The truth is, I could've attended the PKRI, I wasn't doing anything important irl, I was playing Halo, but I knew I wouldn't enjoy it, I certainly didn't want to spend an entire hour doing it. If I'd known I could attend, fight maybe a few times, then stop before the hour ended, but this post made me realise I can't do that.

Clans weren't invented just to fight, they were invented to enhance the enjoyment of a game. Which for some, maybe most people, may be fighting, but for others, it isn't.

You want to be in the #1 warring clan? Go join DI or whoever it is. I am honestly not that fussed about being #1, I actually joined for the community and skilling, not warring. Despite this I am still attending wars, from time to time.

Let the people who want to war, war. Let those who don't want to, do what they want to do. After all, it's a game, it's not like it's a job being a Wilderness Guardian, since when did playing a game involve spending hours doing something you don't want to do, for no physical reward?

Eregion, you're missing the point. If you had something to do irl that stopped you from playing runescape then sure, you ARE excused. But if you are playing and can't stop doing whatever it is that you're doing (and the examples were training/skilling which can be picked up later), than you should be in trouble. You joined a clan so why not help it?

Bassism, I agree that if you won't have fun don't come. But the fact that someone JOINED a clan (which automatically includes warring, they sign this on their application), they agree to attend. If you don't want to war, don't join, it's simple. Go join DI? That makes no sense, why would I give up helping WG get better to go join the best? I'm here to make us stronger, and pretty much you're telling me I should stop, correct?

To be honest, Since when was PKRI mandantory? Never.

My problem was, im useless. Im on a laptop. So touch pad, tanking isn't very easy with a touchpad. Im ok, at the piling, but tanking is impossible! So when people stopped returning, im just like, well if they cant be bothered, then niether can I. I got up early for the war earlier. Just gear up. I didnt both going to football, which was a top of the league game, for WG. So dont start saying that i disgraced WG. Randy, if im not mistaken, On IRC earlier, you said that since you had your binding robe things, you havent recharged them. And there still at like 20-40%? Since the first day they came out? That shows pure commitment my friend.
Most of us have recharged our 2-3 times atleast.

Ok, im getting angrier now. Im gonna stop, and chill out

/rant.

Edit: Editing this out, as im getting really hacked off. And re-read it and thought that it was harsh.

Lol, here we go again. This is a deja-vu that has occured so many times. It simply wasn't a problem when we had different sectors, but while we are without sectors, its always been a sore spot in the proceedings.

Not sure if my input is worth it, unless people can see both sides of the debate. Nevertheless, I'll give it my best shot.

What is WG? A warring clan? A skilling clan? No, its both. And that is where the problem is. But is it a problem? The thing is - its a problem for some, and not a problem for others. Let me explain.

In a clan like this you have 2 types of people (on some sort of spectrum):
1) Person A loves warring, wants to be at the the top, thinks everyone should be a team player
2) Person B is in the clan for the enjoyment. Not to win, but to have a good time, to skill as well as fight.

WG will always have the 2 sorts, and its something we've gotta live with. We can't be a perfect warring tank, yet we still have to try to do our best at warring for those who enjoy it.

Person A invisions WG as a combined warring unit aiming for the top. How fantastic it is to be known as the best, to pick up fighters along the way, to be shrouden in success. They think everyone should make the effort to come, and are understandably annoyed when people turn their backs - its for the name of the clan! You've got a whole day, why not spend this little time fighting for the clan and do a proper job?

Person B doesn't have the same visions of WG. They see it as more of a community. A family more than an army. Sure, let's give warring our best shot, but lets not it take us over. Spread it out a little, let people be free to chose where they want to go. As long as they fit the activity req, what does it matter?

So you see, this is why person A is fustrated. They want us to succeed, and when people dont even show, or walk from the battlefield, it sends morale down the hole. If you're just about doing OK with 30 people, and 3 people walk out, you start to lose possession of the war. Slowly, the other side pushes forwards, and the 27 lose morale. Now the 27 are wasting their time, and everyone who has attended the war has fought in vain. Only the ones who do it for pure enjoyment get the benefit out of it.

When person A gets mad at person B, person B says why doesn't the same apply to other events? What makes wars so special? There again, person B isn't looking for ranks.


What can we do about it?

That's the burning question isn't it? How can we find the perfect compromise? I say there's 2 parts - one easy and one hard - both needed for perfect, or needed in some degree for success.

Easy

Organisation/skill/tactics, whatever you want to call it. However many people you have, if they don't work as a unit, they're no use on the battlefield. Just as rick says, this is one thing person A can ensure so that every person is valuable in the war and a little number can go a long way. I'm past this scene, its up to the raid leaders to train people, and how good our organisation is is a separate matter. All we can really do is practice, and make sure people know what they're doing. The piling is pretty good, and the raid leaders are fast and decisive, I think the next stage is training people how to stay alive.

Difficult

This bit concerns the numbers, what can you do about those who don't turn up? Well, as the title suggests, there's no easy solution. We've got an attendance req. It can't really be moved upwards, because it'll create controversy.

It was a lot easier with the sectors, people knew where their place was. Now with a jumbled mess, you're bound to have arguments like these. To be honest, i'm amazed we didn't get it sooner. Its probably appropriate to thank both randy and owen (and others on either side) who raised this issue to people's attention, and make them take a moment to think that really it isn't as simple as it all seems.

Its easy to make a team, but team members don't always have the same goal. Maybe we should take a leaf about of TBE's book and make a PKing team to deal with PK run-ins and wars? That way, we can save full-out wars for the full clan, and have regular PK run-ins for those who enjoy it? It makes sense to me, but I'm open to criticism. Its either something like this, or person A has to back down. This issue needs thought and now's the time to think about it.

Here's what I think about this subject:

I personally believe that, clan members have rights, and the clan has rights

Rights of the clan members:
Participate in the community, make decisions regarding the clan, discuss important stuff etc..

Rights of the clan: Attending every war/pkri to represent your clan, and participating in every skill war/event

I do agree with Randy on this, I mean come on guys, even if you don't like run ins/wars just attend them as you represent your clan and your clan's strength, attend them to BOOST our community, attend them to BOOST our reputation, and most of all, attend them to HELP your clan mates.
Same goes for skill wars and normal events btw^

Warring is an important factor in any clan's community, just like skilling and community events are, why neglect this? We've won every skill war we participated in with the help of the clan's skillers AND PKers, why not the same for an ordinary war/pkri
Remember, this fight was safe, so the only thing you would have lost is supplies.

I believe people should dedicate more time to the clan (For everything clan related, not just warring)

When you join a clan, you represent that clan, if you refuse to attend any type of event, then you are representing your clan negatively.
Please guys, please, instead of doing whatever you do in RS, just dedicate more time to events and wars when they happen, they really don't take a lot of time, just about 1 hour each.
Of course, you can miss an event if you attended one already on that day, but please, don't miss on an any important event (Public events, wars, etc)

Remember guys, our name is Wilderness Guardians, we ARE supposed to dedicate time to warring, since our name IS warring related.
Oh and guys, just know that WG doesn't have a lot of wars, just look at TBE/TDM/Gladz/<insert decent community clan here>, they have a lot more wars than us, and none of them is warring based.

Edit: At the pkri, I was really bored but I stayed there, I wanted to play WoW with a mate of mine but I still stayed, everyone should try doing that in our events, make your clan your 1 priority.

I play rs for fun, I don't find pvp fun, thus I do not go to them.

This is pretty simple, from what I'm hearing you want EVERYONE in the clan to be at all wars at all times...

ONE WORD! IMPOSSIBLE!!!

What i say is make a WAR UNIT!!!
this way, you know everyone that is willing to war whenerv they log on, no brow-beating or abusing the clan members to come to wars.

AND TBH, i believe the only reason we were so good at warring in 2005-2006 was because PKing was profitable, people wanted to be in a badass clan that never left empty-handed from a war. After the update the attitude changed from"HELL YEAH!" to "HELL NO!".

You CANNOT expect everyone to be there at all times, its completely rash, and retarded at that.

NEW PVP IS COMING SOON!!

i say make a war unit now, and when people wanna war again when its actually worth there time, i say drop the unit and then make the clan come, you will have around 100% more people show up, and willing to do there best.

I whole-heartedly agree with randy here on this one. I was not able to attend for I was at work. sincerely, half of this clans problems is INACTIVITY. if you feel like being lazy and not participating, then leave. As a previous clan leader, I can tell you there is nothing more that pisses leaders off than people being online and refusing to come to an event. even if you just went to the pkri and came back once, it would have made a big difference.

I have to say that I do agree with Randy on this. I wasn't there, but by the looks of it, we could've done a much decent job if we had a better turnout, which was possible.

But as Mike said, you can't force people who dislike warring to leave whatever they're doing and attend the war/pkri. But boy, at least show a bit of commitment to your clan and go fight for it. Who knows, the outcome might have been different if it was for the 5 people who decided to leave what they're doing and attend this pkri.

Ok some of you guys seem to forget we are a warring clan before we are a community clan, or even a skilling clan for that matter, we don't have the sectors anymore.

If you join this clan, you're expected to come to every single war, if you prefer cutting a tree rather than coming to a war/pkri, then get the fuck out right now.

I think its time for me to post here.

Now you have to look at our situation first.
We have about 25-35 select member who want to war frequently.
However, only about 15 are available in 1 particular timezone.
This supplies us with bad turnouts.

Like I know, I feel sorry for rachel + wind, who joined the clan under the term 'skiller', but are now forced to war.
A lot of the leadership is very war orientated atm.
Rob, dale, mugger, glenn, bto, brandon and myself are all very into wars.
We also seem to be a majority amongst leadership.

I really don't know how this whole skiller/fighter problem can be solved.
I'm thinking of a warring list, but this may potentially act like sectors.

In all honesty I don't know why we had a pkri just 9~ish hrs after a full out war.
The problem is, since we have a lot of raid leaders/warlords, we all have power to accept these wars. A lot of the time we just accept it without considering how much our clan has already fought in the past couple of days.

We accept these wars for those 25-35 members, but the skillers aren't prepared to help out all the time. Yes, I thank them for helping out in select wars, and it 'beefs' up our clan a bit in terms of warring activity. However, I know these skilling orientated people do not want to war all the time.

So it comes down to this.

• If we want a lot of the skilling part of wg to help out in wars, we shouldn't accept too many big wars.
• Short preps mean small turnouts.

In all honesty I personally do like the amount of warring atm.
However, this is because wars entertain me.
I do realise though, that we can't keep doing 3-4 wars/pkri's on the weekend, because our turnout is just terrible to the less important ones.

I don't know whether a lot of fighters will leave if we can't provide though...



On a less important note, i love firefox

Now maths is talking sense, he understands the situation from both sides.

Just one thing - why such the huge opposition to sectors? People referr to them like the black death. I don't see the harm in doing what TBE does and make a 'warring list'. Not necessarily used for the proper full outs (every 2 weeks maybe), but for PKRI and miniwars with short preps.

It seems like the PERFECT way to get round this. No need to change forum ranks, no need to divide the clan. We already have an 'emeritus' sector, is that hurting anybody? Of course not. I haven't heard one reason why we shouldn't make a warring list. Its the next best possibility.

Is it because we're afraid of change? Because without attempting things, you don't know whether they'll work or not.

Is it enough or is it too late? I guess only time, and Rob's overall attitude towards skillers, will tell. I hope he's learned.

There has to be a division. You cannot say we are not a community or we are not a skiller clan, when half of the members here joined for SKILLING. Tabs, Rachel, me, and many others all have the same views. We didn't like pk'ing when it was profitable, why would we like it now when it's not. Also, in my absence, I have no fricken idea what these terms are, let alone the fact that I cannot learn them simply because all of these warring events are on weekends when I cannot attend them.

If you want attendance, we need more people so we can have wars with gmt times and est times, but still allow any timezone to join in. To get more members, we actually have to show that we ARE a community, and we AREN'T war warmongers. If we were, we'd have no problem here. We aren't some of us have been skillers since we joined rs, some of us have been pk'ers, and a few are both. Most of us pay monthly to play the game on members, and then there is the expectation to attend every war event.

We're paying for something that we don't find fun? No, it's blasphemy.

If you want wars to turn out well, make sectors again. If you don't like the idea of sectors, figure out another solution. Forcing members to wars is an unacceptable solution. We don't force members to skilling events, why? No, I'm not saying we should, but if you're going to hold wars up on a pedestal, then you might as well do it for every thing.

We don't need to be number one rank in anything. It's a damn game. We have each other, we are Wilderness Guardians. Every rant or flame is breaking the structure down. We don't need people leaving right now, especially if it's unnecessary. Some members leave basically because they don't like wg, and haven't from the moment they got here... BUT, some members are leaving who have been here for years, and love wg, but it's being ruined by rants and issues that don't get solved.

Solve it damnit. I'm sick of this stuff happening, any clan I've ever gone through, it's the same shit. We're a community, we are skillers, and we are pk'ers. Some people simple want to devote more time in other areas, or just in a single area altogether. Regardless of what they do, they benefit the clan. To hell with being number one. We've been there, we're on the record book, drop it already.

Ikahigurashi is another of us who's pointing out the blaringly obvious problem, and the seemingly only possible solution.

Where's the council?

Its like we're having a office meeting and the manager is prancing around the room pretending the floor is made of snakes, not paying any attention at all.

No doubt this issue will just get blown off when people stop complaining, as if its all ok and ignoring it will make it go away.

I mean just look at the whole topic - the only council response is one person who made the most controversial post about the whole issue. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass here but we have 3 pages of posts, some very insightful, and not 1 post (except the one i've mentioned) has come from council..

People nowadays join clans because of how good at warring they are. Why do DF have so many members and can pull 100 people to a war? Cause they are the top warring clan. It creates a snowball effect which brings in even more members. For us to even start that sort of accomplishment we have to start bringing everyone possible to wars.
You don't see Top Community lists or which clan is the best at skilling. Warring is the new fashion and we have to keep up with it.

So why do we have to be like everyone else? It's kind of selfish to think that we skillers should conform to YOUR way of playing the game. Why don't you join the skillers of the clan and not worry about wars?

Bringing back the sectors would be a big mistake imo. That would lead to more isolationism than we have now.
Basically warring is how a clan gets it reputation, we have had good pking eras and bad ones.
I think we are in a rebuilding phase and are recovering still from the wildy updates.
As long as people are in the clan and online, where there is a need you should attend a warring event.
This was not some 12 hour pkri, it lasted an hour.
We have excellent raid leaders, but sometimes it seems not the best warring decisions are made.
Just because you guys want a fight 24/7 doesn't mean everyone does.
I think that you owe it to your clan to come fight if you can, but if you just can't do it then don't.
Every event is important, however the reputation in the clan world is one based on warring not trawler trips.
We need to find a way to blend all our needs to make a happy medium.
The people who love to war certainly supported the recent Skill Olympics very admirably.
We are in this together, there is no need to be at each others throats.
The hand that holds the sword may also hold the harp. Not all days are full of strife, some are days of peace and fellowship.

This is my opinion:

Wg isn't a clan purely on just people who want to war or Skill,
Whether you like it or not, it is a mixture of both.

That's why we need to satisfy everyone's needs, we can't just kick all the Skillers or kick all the warrers so that we can satisfy one goal because there are friendship circles within circles.

Which is why we won't force anyone to come to wars, we won't force anyone to come to Skilling Events. However you have to come to some kind of Event/War to prove your activity, Emeritus is expected to come to our most Important Wars.

If you are asked to come to a War/Event, and you reply "No", then that is as far as it goes, you should not be questioned further or pressured into coming, if you're coming, it should be because you either want to help the clan bond and perform well or because you have fun or both. However for our most important wars, you should post saying why you aren't coming, we expect everyone to take part if they can to boost our clan's morale and to have us at a better position in the clan world.

~Abs

I can live with that Abs. Nice and fair solution.

Sup, this isnt DF, you cant force people to do something that they dont want.


This is what all the community/skilled based people in this clan will say.

Thats why we dont win any wars unless we fight clans like The Crusade ..