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Auburn Shooting

By Renoldojr10 on 07/03/2008
Lauren Burk, Auburn university student, friend of mine. She graduated from my high school and he brother is a Junior. She was shot in the back of the head, and he car was found in flames ON CAMPUS. This is really crazy, is college really worth it now? All people want to do is gain a step in life and they get shot? Makes no sense to me. Its a shame. Hopefully her killer will be found. RIP Lauren.

~Ali
~Do Work.



By Gibble00 on 07/03/2008
ohmy.gif

I'm sorry to here that Ali sad.gif

The world isn't fair, that's all it is.

sleep.gif Blessings to her family.

By Kiwi011 on 07/03/2008
this is why guns should be legal on campus.

By His Lordship on 07/03/2008
What?
No Kiwi, that makes the problem even worse!
Having more guns just means more shootings.
I can't believe you'd resort to that sort of logic.
Don't start me on American gun use.

By Mochacho456 on 07/03/2008
QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 07, 2008 04:14 am)
this is why guns should be legal on campus.

Idiot.

By Kiwi011 on 07/03/2008
QUOTE (His Lordship @ March 07, 2008 04:26 am)
What?
No Kiwi, that makes the problem even worse!
Having more guns just means more shootings.
I can't believe you'd resort to that sort of logic.
Don't start me on American gun use.

ok then, Teachers should all have guns then. If a student is going to kill people. Hes not gonna do it if he knows some1 else has a gun. If every1 in the world had a gun, crime would stop tramatically. Every gang member in the world already has a gun pretty much anyway. All that would happen is less murders.(18+ only)

Cities with people who have many guns have less murders and more makemyday law victims(ex burglurs getting ****, say Ex-Texas.). Countries with guns illegal to civilians have more murders and crime.

tell me, if you knew a person had a gun and planned on killing people in the room with that person, your chances of actually going in and shooting some1 are lessoned and you will probably get shot too.

Ex-The shooting at the Church in Colorado Springs where the lady shot and killed someone trying to murder people in a church.

By JC on 07/03/2008
How about a better idea, proper gun control meaning that psycopaths like the one that has murdered this university student cant get access to guns in the first place....

QUOTE
Countries with guns illegal to civilians have more murders and crime.


Are you actually truly serious?!?!?!?

America has THE HIGHEST rate of gun crime in the world. THIS IS A FACT. It is widely behlieved that this is a result of its incredibly loose gun laws, being a country where anyone is constutionally allowed to 'bear arms'. Put it this way, in the US there is 5.7 murders per 100,000 people compared to canada that has approximately 1/3rd the murders. Incidentally Canada also has decent gun laws....

Honestly I feel infinitely safer in NZ where you can only own firearms when you have completed a stringent firearms lisencing process, which even then will not allow you to hold any military style firearms OR pistols.

In regard to your example, who gave the phsyco the gun in the first place???????

By Karel Dude on 07/03/2008
Sorry to hear Ali =\

If that sort of thing happened where i live, it would really freak

By Kiwi011 on 07/03/2008
QUOTE (Theevildead2 @ March 07, 2008 08:52 am)
How about a better idea, proper gun control meaning that psycopaths like the one that has murdered this university student cant get access to guns in the first place....

QUOTE
Countries with guns illegal to civilians have more murders and crime.


Are you actually truly serious?!?!?!?

America has THE HIGHEST rate of gun crime in the world. THIS IS A FACT. It is widely behlieved that this is a result of its incredibly loose gun laws, being a country where anyone is constutionally allowed to 'bear arms'. Put it this way, in the US there is 5.7 murders per 100,000 people compared to canada that has approximately 1/3rd the murders. Incidentally Canada also has decent gun laws....

Honestly I feel infinitely safer in NZ where you can only own firearms when you have completed a stringent firearms lisencing process, which even then will not allow you to hold any military style firearms OR pistols.

In regard to your example, who gave the phsyco the gun in the first place???????

if some1 wants to kill some1, they can find a gun/wep to do it. Its those that are innocent that are at risk. If someone is planning on killing they will do it no matter what the law, leaving the innocent incapable of defense. If the innocent can defend themselves. Crime lessons. Crime is large in america b/c of gangs and such. They already have guns and stuff. Its the people they kill who dont, they are safe. Innocents are in danger because they lack proper understanding and are unwilling to see the truth that violence can only get rid of a violent person, someone intent on murder will murder, but he wont murder as many or get the chance if those he plans on murdering have a means to defend themselves.

Police arent there in seconds, they are there in 10-30mins...which is way to long.


p.s-done on this, ill make a gun control topic if necessary.

By His Lordship on 07/03/2008
Australia has around 50 gun deaths a year.
America has in excess of 10 000 without fail.
Even when you compensate for population, it's a big difference.
You guys are unfortunate enough to live in a society whereby you can't trust anyone. If I were living in America I know I'd be living in fear because of that culture.
Spend a few months in Australia or Canada or the UK (But not London. Avoid London, it has knife crime everywhere, and security cameras around every corner means no privacy)... you'll see there's a difference when you take guns out of the equation.

By RobbieThe1st on 07/03/2008
Personally, I am on the pro-gun side of the argument(I however don't see any problem at all with proper training/licenses, so long as they are reasonable to get) - If you make guns illegal, the bad guys are going to get them anyway, and its just going to be the innocents without a way to defend themselves.

However, I think the issue with America(I am living there, so I know a bit about it), is simply a different mindset. I can't explain it exactly, but I mean, looking at the world around me compared to the world over in Ireland(the one other country I have visited for more than a few hours - the other was Canada) - and you definitely notice a completely different feel and how the people react and such.

Australia wise, I watched a bunch of The Chasers War On Everything, and I mean... You try to do pretty much any of those stunts here, and your going to wind up in jail or facing a lawsuit. Completely different mindset.

I figure its not just the guns, or anything - Its also the people. Growing up in a certain culture is going to give you different perceptions of normal and such, and I figure that American culture isn't all that nice, especially in the cities. I have had the good fortune to live out in the countryside, and there is a definite difference in how people act between where I am, and less than 60 miles away, in the big city.

Guns on campus wise, I mean, I am pretty sure that Auburn is a gun-free-zone, however, you can see how much good that did. I am not saying you should allow them, but denying them didn't seem to work, and if you were actually able to make it work perfectly... I would be afraid at how much liberty would be taken away by the rules needed.


-RobbieThe1st

By His Lordship on 07/03/2008
QUOTE (RobbieThe1st @ March 07, 2008 12:57 pm)
Personally, I am on the pro-gun side of the argument(I however don't see any problem at all with proper training/licenses, so long as they are reasonable to get) - If you make guns illegal, the bad guys are going to get them anyway, and its just going to be the innocents without a way to defend themselves.

Really?
Because Australia, New Zealand, England, and other gun free countries have bad guys with guns... and there are still less gun murders.

I have spent countless hours studying American life, and I really feel sorry for those people who just have so much fear, and no trust on strangers. No wonder RSC got worked up over me breaking into JaGeX. In the States that would probably be a big thing.

Really, America CAN be a great country.
I admire the basic principles your country was founded on.
I love how you respect your motherland.
But there are things that would put me off.
There's a whole culture of fear, generated by the media...
Politics is really messy.
You are also really scared of other countries and foreigners.
And then there's the way the government neglects really important things, and chooses to spend it on military power instead.

But that aside, it would be healthy for you guys to spend some quality time overseas, or do what Robbie did and watch the Chaser's War on Everything (podcasts available online). It gives a little insight into what REAL freedom is.

By Mochacho456 on 07/03/2008
Canada has 1/10th the ratio of murders by guns than the united states. Whats the difference? Second amendment.

Enjoy your "freedom".

By Kiwi011 on 07/03/2008
QUOTE (RobbieThe1st @ March 07, 2008 12:57 pm)
Personally, I am on the pro-gun side of the argument(I however don't see any problem at all with proper training/licenses, so long as they are reasonable to get) - If you make guns illegal, the bad guys are going to get them anyway, and its just going to be the innocents without a way to defend themselves.

However, I think the issue with America(I am living there, so I know a bit about it), is simply a different mindset.
I figure its not just the guns, or anything - Its also the people. Growing up in a certain culture is going to give you different perceptions of normal and such, and I figure that American culture isn't all that nice, especially in the cities.

exactly, know matter what the bad guys will get them.

The reason the USA has so many more shootings and such though, not meaning to be racial or mean, but its the truth is because of the immagrant Mexicans and Asian populations.

No offense, but seriously, 99% of those immigrants work for less than minimum wage and in the end resort to violence, gangs and drugs. Go to Texas or California. All of those Asian and Mexican groups outside the theaters are almost always part of a gang. The reason Australia, NZ, UK, and Canada don't have as many shootings is b/c they don't have as large an immigrant(illegal and legal) base that works for less than half the minimum wage.

By bobler2 on 07/03/2008
point is in the end atm sociaties pretty fucked up

RIP

By JC on 08/03/2008
Immigrants arent the only gang base. In New Zealand we have a huge amount of Indigenous gang's and a smaller amount of Immigrant based gangs (more asian based gangs than anything which revolve around drugs). From what I see the main cause of Gangs in the US is the fact that gun crime and gangs are glorified by the rap/hip-hop culture.

In New Zealand even though there is some hugely violent gang culture (search 'Mongrel Mob' or 'Black Power' if you want to see what I mean) gun crime is extremely rare (1.7% of violent crime has guns involved), quoting crime.co.nz "Relative Levels of Firearm Crime

In terms of relative levels of firearm crime, our gun crime rate is much less than the United States, but comparable with those in Canada and Australia, the Canadian figures for gun homicide being somewhat higher, probably because of its relatively high handgun population. [Part 3.4]" (http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=10751), also note this graph showing the rate of firearm offences VS Violent offences

user posted image

showing how tiny the amount of gun crime we actually have compared to violent crime (source: http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/1997/r...earms-control/)

The main factor(s) in this is A) we do have firearm controll, hence reducing the availability of guns to those who should not hold them (yes I do recognise that criminals still do have firearms, it is much more difficult for them to source them than to walk to their nearst gun store and pick one off the shelves) and cool.gif gun crime is not glorified in NZ, giving some-one the bash is more likely to get you respect in a gang and as a result beatings and related violent crime is much more prevalent (just recently 4 people got bashed to facilitate a couple of teenagers induction into a gang called the 'killerbbez').

One of the big problems I see in the US is gun crime as a result of 'self defence', because by implication every household in the US could potentially contain firearms this means criminals will feel the need to arm themselves as well, hence it turns into a 'kill or be killed' situation for both the criminal and the victim.

Also lastly of all, I doubt that this student would have been saved if firearms were allowed on campus, hence your argument that not having firearms on campus is utter bullshit.

By Renoldojr10 on 08/03/2008
How would guns on campus help? Why not make guns freaking illegal only cops, army, and other EMS services. Why the hell would you let normal people have them. The United States has a murder with a gun about every 30 seconds. Scary huh. So how the hell would that help. The USA is the worst in almost everything involving deaths with guns.

~Ali

RIP

By JC on 08/03/2008
Hear Hear

By Kiwi011 on 08/03/2008
QUOTE (Theevildead2 @ March 08, 2008 01:02 am)
From what I see the main cause of Gangs in the US is the fact that gun crime and gangs are glorified by the rap/hip-hop culture.

The main factor(s) in this is A) we do have firearm controll, hence reducing the availability of guns to those who should not hold them (yes I do recognise that criminals still do have firearms, it is much more difficult for them to source them than to walk to their nearst gun store and pick one off the shelves) and cool.gif gun crime is not glorified in NZ, giving some-one the bash is more likely to get you respect in a gang and as a result beatings and related violent crime is much more prevalent (just recently 4 people got bashed to facilitate a couple of teenagers induction into a gang called the 'killerbbez').

Also lastly of all, I doubt that this student would have been saved if firearms were allowed on campus, hence your argument that not having firearms on campus is utter bullshit.

Gangs in the US are cuased by what we call in america, Drug wars. Rap has part to do with it but not much, its just crappy music that isnt what it used to be. real rap is good, the **** now a days is crap and is sex sex sex, rape, kill, shoot, i got bling i got bling i got bling..

In gang wars in America, they dont bash people, thats for when they go mug people....in their fights they shoot each other, kill each other, then the winner ends up going out and robbing houses and other people and killing them. For instance, half a year ago i was driving with a friend in his car. We were about 2 miles from his house on a little road and housing area near Ft. Carson if anyone knows where that is. next thing we know three shots hit the back windows and a **** load more keep coming. We call 911 after we drive out of there and the cops said, "I'm sorry but that area is off limits to us because gangs in the area control the area." Lets just say we got shot. We would have been stuck there to die. My uncle drives firetrucks in Texas. Some parts of Dallas and Houston, the firetrucks, police and ambulances don't go, if a house burns, they let it burn until it dies even if it swallows more houses, why is this not in the news? Because reporters don't go down there because police have told them its a highly dangerous area.

If i lived there, i would want to own a gun. Those guys had guns and would have had them even with a gun law stating guns are absolutely illegal. I live in a society where guns are commonplace and most robbers know use guns because it is intimidating, lets them control the situation and because then they have a way to defend themselves. If every innocent civilian in the US had a gun also, robbery's and 70% of murders would not occur, becuase they know there prey is armed, and a bit of money isnt worth there life, if they know the person has no guns, he can waltz right in care free and do what he likes..... thats life and thats why guns should be allowed, however, only those who know how to use them should be able to have them.

Heres another example, also true. My mom is a Realtor. She was looking through a house and a guy jumped onto her. She pushed him away, and pulled the gun out and he ran. She had her life saved, or at least stoped what could have been a traumatic event.

----that student probably not, but look at Virginia tech, if a student or teacher was armed, theres no way he would have killed so many people.Mass shootings wouldnt occur, maybe 3 deaths, but not 10+ which is the real horror know a days. 3 is bad, but 10 is worse.


guns dont kill people do. A gun in a good persons hand is a criminal that wasn't allowed to kill more people.

By JC on 08/03/2008
Are you trying to claim that people are the problem here?

Okay I'll put it in small words for you:

-Without guns it is hard to kill a person...
-Without any guns involved a person can be stopped/restrained by members of the public, note the citizens arrest performed on an NZ citizen in a hotel who was a fugtive after being accused of murdering his wife and abandoning his daughter in a train station (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1608716) note that without guns a criminal was apprahended.

Basically imagine a country where very few people have guns, NZ is a decent example. in NZ we dont have area's of mass crime, we dont have area's where guns are hugely prevalent, we dont have areas where the police and emergency services are scared to go and I am 100% confident that this is a result of FIREARM CONTROLL.

We dont have to have bans on carrying weapons on university campuses because realistically 2% of students would have firearms. I do have a gun, and I ONLY use it for hunting, I have never been assaulted/shot at/injured by a criminal and I never have to carry my pistol around, even when walking through a dodgy area of the city that I live in because I dont feel unsafe (I'm 170cm tall and 60-70kg's so its not like I'm big/intimidating either).

I have never even seen a person carrying a gun other than to hunt and I can say with absolute certainty that this is a result of the vast majority of guns being owned by people who have been vetted by the police and will not be tempted to use weapons to commit violent crime.....

Basically it all comes down to the fact that the US is a country that has had since its foundation an underlying gun culture and as a result of your Second Amendment you see nothing to stop you using guns in crim as well as self defence.... In most other countries 'self defence' isn't an acceptable reason for shooting a criminal and you could potentially be charged with murder/manslaughter (accidental killing).

in the end if your culture didnt have the idea that everyone has/uses a gun then there would be no implied need for people needing guns to commit or defend against crime.

By RobbieThe1st on 08/03/2008
Sense when are crooks not going to get guns? If they are made anywhere in the world, they can obviously be brought anywhere they are needed, especially in todays world.
If you shut down all gun factories in the world, someone would still build them, because they would be worth so much money, and you can be sure that the 'good guys' wouldn't get them. Ok, you say, how about if there were just a couple 'good guy' controlled factories? Well, sooner or later, you are going to get a rotten apple working there, or theres going to be a break in, and the weapons will get out.

Even if you managed to eliminate all guns in the world, you would still have knives, and you can be sure *someone* would invent something just as dangerous as a modern-day gun, if not worse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, stop using Australia or Canada as a comparison for the US - You are comparing apples to oranges. Try comparing various parts of the US instead.


-RobbieThe1st


By His Lordship on 08/03/2008
Australia and America can be compared.
We have similar lifestyles.

By JC on 08/03/2008
I am not saying that there should be no guns in the world at all, they do have their uses.

I am making the point that THE UNITED STAES has a underlying culture that does revolve around guns.... look at your television, your musice, your government and so on. So yes all the gun fatories shut down would be a bad thing (where would your armies get their guns?) but how tricky would it be to restrict the sales of arms to only weapons that are suited to hunting/sports?

Think of it this way, if there was no sales of Pistols/MSSA (militray style semi auto) then there would be no need for people to sell ammuntion for weapons of that type hence meaning the users would be unable to shoot there guns.

Yes there might be bad eggs that will sell ammo for these guns, but realistically unless american industry is totally incompetent they would notice even small amounts of ammuntion going missing, and a few thousand rounds going missing between all the crims in the US isnt exactly a big deal compared to everyone now being able to shoot whatever they like whenever they like.

I would rather a limited amount of availability than every fucker having there 'piece' and the police to scared to deal with the issue if I'm honest

By Dorcha3377 on 08/03/2008
You have to realize the minds of the Southen America, its different from the rest of the country as far as guns are concerned.
Most household have guns in them and people are taught to respect them.

In this particular case, if the murderer didnt have a gun, she would have been killed a different way. Guns dont neccessarily murder people ...people do.



By His Lordship on 08/03/2008
Guns don't kill people. People do.
But guns help.
If we follow that logic, why not allow all Americans to own bombs?
Bombs don't kill people. People do.

And on top of all this, remember one thing.
At the time the second amendment was written, guns were muskets and later on, rifles, that took a very long time to load, and were highly inaccurate... PLUS guns weren't mass manufactured with ammunition readily available around the corner. If the founding fathers knew about fricken semi-automatic **** that could blow away hundreds of people in minutes, I don't think that amendment would be the same.

By Kiwi011 on 08/03/2008
QUOTE (His Lordship @ March 08, 2008 08:33 am)
Guns don't kill people. People do.
But guns help.
If we follow that logic, why not allow all Americans to own bombs?
Bombs don't kill people. People do.

And on top of all this, remember one thing.
At the time the second amendment was written, guns were muskets and later on, rifles, that took a very long time to load, and were highly inaccurate... PLUS guns weren't mass manufactured with ammunition readily available around the corner. If the founding fathers knew about fricken semi-automatic **** that could blow away hundreds of people in minutes, I don't think that amendment would be the same.

because Gene, I could make a bomb and several more to kill over 100 people, and it would be easy. I don't need a bomb though because that wouldn't help to defend me, you cant defend against bombs, you can defend against others w/ guns that intend to use them badly w/ your own.

When the 2nd Amendment was going on, the Government wasnt training Spec. Ops and Mercenary's(yes, the US has hired an extreme amount of mercenary's to help us) to kill their own family and other civilians.

And you may think that the guns can kill hundreds in a minute, but lets just look at some info.
QUOTE
it took a staggering 50,000 bullets to kill a single enemy in Vietnam.

it took 2 shots to kill an enemy in Revolutionary war, 5000 in WWI and 20000 in WWII
cant remember where i got it, but its correct.

Now, they may be guns of hell, but if someone else can shoot them, the risk of them killing someone else is extremely lowered. Now, lets say our armed forces, they are going against a weapon called an AK-47. We have a weapon called an M4/m16. The ak is a one shot one kill weapon and if it hit you in the chest, half your chest would be gone on the other side. The M4/M16 shoots a .22 caliber round but faster, it takes an average of over 3 bullets to even bring the terrorists down, especially when they are hyped up on drugs that dont let them feel pain so they can keep fighting.

Lets look at this. Most gun owners that have a side arm are licensed to do so and have gone through training and go to a gun range more often than most. Most murders, just go buy a gun and ammo off of ebay and shoot randomly and hope to kill someone. If I knew someone was trying to kill me that knew how to use a gun, I would definitely not to there. Im not saying Guns must be used, a taser or something is also good too, but its not that effective or as effective when shot into the other person, it only works as well if its pushed into you. An innocent with a gun would stop most murders in areas w/ a large populous.

O btw, deadevil, if the manufacture of guns only went to army and police, the murders would still get them, the gangs would 100% get them. Most gang members ive seen are illegal, below the poverty line, live in the ghetto and migrate back and forth from Mexico-USA. The drug trade gets them anything they want. We stop maybe 100k illegals coming into the US a year. Over 200k or more probably make it and that is an extremely low guess. They have taken so much that we are thinking of making Spanish our second language. If you can get a person through the border, you can get pot through the border which means you can get guns through the border.

o.0 btw Lordy, I highly doubt(but don't know) the drug trade in Australia is but I bet its so small and so little fought over thats one cause, the other would be, Australia probably doesn't have near as large an illegal or legal immigrant amount coming into America. Since you all feel safe wherever you go you don't need to bring anything to defend yourself and keep your doors unlocked all day ill bet gun violence rises in the next 40 years to an extreme high in Australia when people start to realize its easy money.

but yea. w/e.

By JC on 08/03/2008
Look above everyone.....This is what happens when someone wades into an argument with only a tiny understanding of the actual topic.

Every point you have made Kiwi is a 'claim', note how I have backed mine up with evidence from reputable sources (if the NZ police isnt a good source then I dont know what is). Drug crime is prevalent in both NZ and aussie, because it is pretty common for people to smuggle drugs through NZ thinking its borders are weaker than european countries/the US. the theory is that when they fly into one of the more heavily defended countries their gaurd will be lowered by the fact that it has come from a first world country.

In regard to the 'very few immigrants' claim, did you actually put any time into researching this claim? NZ has a very loose definition of what a refugee is actually considered, as a result we have a huge influx of refugees that few other countries, this chart based upon the 2001 census (a nationwide survey of our population) shows actually how diverse our population is (select the third one down and open it with excel; http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/2001-censu...ity-tables.htm) so just because we dont have any countries ajoining ours does not mean we dont have immigrants that aren't so desireable.

We also have a large problem of people, particularily from asian nations (indonesia, malaysia, timor etc.) jumping ship when docked at New Zealand ports. Generally these people get jobs in our agricultural industry untill they are discovered by the authorities.

Also I have to ask how relevant it is how many shots were needed to kill anyone in the wars you list (please try to find the source for this, since data is worthless without a source) since I highly doubt that the way that a person is killed in those wars is at all relevant. Firstly, in the revolutionary war the guns were way less powerful than todays, and the tactics used during vietnam would include artillery/aircraft and other types of shooting that I'm pretty sure the average crim wouldnt use.

The point I am trying to make is that the average crim isnt going to use any of the tactics that the military uses, so realistically people can kill allot more than you think.

And lastly of all..... M4/M16's are .223 which is a totally different calibre to .22...

Here is a pic of a .223

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:5.56mm-...tary-rounds.jpg

and here is a .22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:.22_LR.jpg

Note there's a bit of difference there?

By Mochacho456 on 09/03/2008
Sure, guns don't kill people, people do.

BUT.

Guns allow people to kill people at a much higher rate. Besides, if you encouraged people to bring weapons to campus, you can expect that fist fights would turn into shootings.

By His Lordship on 09/03/2008
Bombs defend in the same way as guns. You can defend against other bombs with your own bomb. Let grenades be legal in America. If someone has a grenade and is going to try to kill you, throw a grenade right back.

QUOTE
it took a staggering 50,000 bullets to kill a single enemy in Vietnam.

I bet it didn't take that many bullets to kill so many people in Columbine.

This quote particularly annoys me:
QUOTE
Now, they may be guns of hell, but if someone else can shoot them, the risk of them killing someone else is extremely lowered.

If they shoot someone, one person dies. If someone shoots them, one person dies. That's the same amount of death I believe. And don't argue this back. One life is not worth more an another.

QUOTE
Lets look at this. Most gun owners that have a side arm are licensed to do so and have gone through training and go to a gun range more often than most.


Why do they need one in the first place if it's just for 'defence' as you put it?

QUOTE
Im not saying Guns must be used, a taser or something is also good too, but its not that effective or as effective when shot into the other person, it only works as well if its pushed into you.


You just don't get it, do you? The ideal situation would be an America that didn't need defence at all. "A taser is good too"... NO! None of this is good. Why not instead try and get an America that doesn't need guns at all? Other countries can do it.

QUOTE
o.0 btw Lordy, I highly doubt(but don't know) the drug trade in Australia is but I bet its so small and so little fought over thats one cause, the other would be, Australia probably doesn't have near as large an illegal or legal immigrant amount coming into America.


Um, last time I checked that's good. Our drug trade TRIES to grow all the time. Three days ago in an airport a few minutes away from me, 1.7M of illegal drugs were obtained in a raid. Our government and police force does a REALLY good job of stopping the drug trade from expanding. Your government doesn't do that.

Furthermore, our society is multicultural moreso than America. We are recognised as one of the most multicultural societies in the world, because of our high immigration. Our immigration actually causes more of a population rise than our natural births.

------------------

Just realise a few things Kiwi.
So many Americans have guns to defend themselves.
The rest of the world doesn't.
Yet, more Americans die by gun despite them being able to defend themselves.
The rest of the world... (Terrorists and ALLIES as well. Australia is an ally) really don't like the way America works. Only America really seems to think highly of themselves. Something is really wrong here. Now in my experience in WG, I know American people are good people, but they just have so much social fear. It's not good for you, and the sooner you realise that guns are only making America worse off, the better.

By Kiwi011 on 09/03/2008
QUOTE (His Lordship @ March 09, 2008 02:16 am)
Bombs defend in the same way as guns. You can defend against other bombs with your own bomb. Let grenades be legal in America. If someone has a grenade and is going to try to kill you, throw a grenade right back.

QUOTE
it took a staggering 50,000 bullets to kill a single enemy in Vietnam.

I bet it didn't take that many bullets to kill so many people in Columbine.

This quote particularly annoys me:
QUOTE
Now, they may be guns of hell, but if someone else can shoot them, the risk of them killing someone else is extremely lowered.

If they shoot someone, one person dies. If someone shoots them, one person dies. That's the same amount of death I believe. And don't argue this back. One life is not worth more an another.

QUOTE
Lets look at this. Most gun owners that have a side arm are licensed to do so and have gone through training and go to a gun range more often than most.


Why do they need one in the first place if it's just for 'defence' as you put it?

QUOTE
Im not saying Guns must be used, a taser or something is also good too, but its not that effective or as effective when shot into the other person, it only works as well if its pushed into you.


You just don't get it, do you? The ideal situation would be an America that didn't need defence at all. "A taser is good too"... NO! None of this is good. Why not instead try and get an America that doesn't need guns at all? Other countries can do it.

QUOTE
o.0 btw Lordy, I highly doubt(but don't know) the drug trade in Australia is but I bet its so small and so little fought over thats one cause, the other would be, Australia probably doesn't have near as large an illegal or legal immigrant amount coming into America.


Um, last time I checked that's good. Our drug trade TRIES to grow all the time. Three days ago in an airport a few minutes away from me, 1.7M of illegal drugs were obtained in a raid. Our government and police force does a REALLY good job of stopping the drug trade from expanding. Your government doesn't do that.

Furthermore, our society is multicultural moreso than America. We are recognised as one of the most multicultural societies in the world, because of our high immigration. Our immigration actually causes more of a population rise than our natural births.

------------------

Just realise a few things Kiwi.
So many Americans have guns to defend themselves.
The rest of the world doesn't.
Yet, more Americans die by gun despite them being able to defend themselves.
The rest of the world... (Terrorists and ALLIES as well. Australia is an ally) really don't like the way America works. Only America really seems to think highly of themselves. Something is really wrong here. Now in my experience in WG, I know American people are good people, but they just have so much social fear. It's not good for you, and the sooner you realise that guns are only making America worse off, the better.

yea mocha ur right, i jumped the gun on the campus thing, more of teachers, should have them or no how to use them, or there should be tighter security.

Lordy- o.0

and no, becuase grenades dont protect, they can hit others and have no purpose other than to kill, what swat team would throw a grenade in a room with a hostage? None. People dont do that. Guns can kill while under control and can pick out who to kill

Exactly, if someone was shooting the Columbine people they wouldn't have killed near as many.

If you kill the killer, more than one person will die, not to mention in the US, most murders commit suicide so if you can stop a murder, you can kill a person who is already going to die. 2 lives>1 tbh, if he is going to kill me and someone else and i pull a gun on him and kill him after he kills me at least one innocent lives.(not meant for a self centered view but yea)

You train so you dont miss and its easy to save yourself before the other person decides o, your slow buh bye now. Habit w/ a gun>Determination to kill w/ a gun, someone who never trains will not be as fast at aiming nor as fast as killing. A trained person will have it down and will be able to end up controlling the situation. Most murderers dont have training its just a random attack.

Do you really think thats possible now? Maybe in the 1920's and after, but now? The only way to stop people using and having guns is to check every household. And seriously, why america still has gun laws? The us has gun laws because it was founded on them, we gained our independence with them, we fought the native americans with them. Only reason we are free to day is becuase of guns.

Exactly, our government doest do a good job.....

xxxxx ok

Yes I agree, only America thinks its fine, 3/4 of the US still thinks we are a rich nation for gods sake.


Also......
ALSO............ YOU MUST INCLUDE THE FACT THAT HALF THE DEATHS FROM GUNS IN THE USA ARE FROM SUICIDES. That means either way they would have died since suicide can be done w/ other things. They just used a gun to do it. Also, there are more car related deaths in the US than murders, should we get rid of the also since its a weapon too?

You see, the thing is, even if the us made guns illegal, i personally would and could buy a semi auto AK-47 for 2 grand easily. You see, I theres a lot of what you would call black markets in the US, and they are easy to find if you know where to look, unfortunately, our government is retarded and dismissing these things. I could also build my own ak47 buy buying parts that i could easily say are for my car or house...just jump into Mexico and cross the border... I dont even need a visa to get into Mexico, and for the US, 99/100 people don't even get their bags checked. Just cross over land not air. You have no idea how America works. Its impossible and wont happen.

American people have a thing like this, im American too but yea this is an Ideal most hold....."We don't need to change everyone else does."


also look at all the situations that guns could have stopped. Bank Hostage situations, a civilian could easily pop some guy off when his backs turned before the cops come and hes forced into shooting people.....life is hell in America, get used to it and adapt. Only thing we can do.

By ArSeNaLfAn32 on 09/03/2008
That is truly horrible. People are cruel.

By His Lordship on 09/03/2008
QUOTE
Exactly, if someone was shooting the Columbine people they wouldn't have killed near as many.


I'm sick of arguing against this stupidity. I know I'm nobody in your real life, but there is a reason everyone except America hates America.

By Renoldojr10 on 09/03/2008
QUOTE (His Lordship @ March 09, 2008 01:36 am)
QUOTE
Exactly, if someone was shooting the Columbine people they wouldn't have killed near as many.


I'm sick of arguing against this stupidity. I know I'm nobody in your real life, but there is a reason everyone except America hates America.

I love America for its freedom. I hate America for its corrupt government and policies.

By His Lordship on 09/03/2008
But that's the thing. You don't have freedom.
You live in fear and most of you don't know it.

By Kiwi011 on 09/03/2008
QUOTE (His Lordship @ March 09, 2008 07:10 am)
But that's the thing. You don't have freedom.
You live in fear and most of you don't know it.

no its we have fear but our government is what you call a fascist society becuase we arent told what really goes on. Its not democracy. My uncles grew up in what was Yugoslavia and they even told me the same thing. And they LIVE here. If they take guns away, I'm toast. I keep a gun as a way for protection. With it i can't be violated and live carefree with it at home.

By His Lordship on 09/03/2008
I can live quite happily without a gun.
Things should change so that America doesn't need them.

By bobler2 on 09/03/2008
Ummmm question, if you guys are talking about taking guns away then what good does that do? If say carrying guns was illegal, well the people that use them to kill wont exactly worry about breaking a law like that when they plan or carry out murder, all it does is bite the law abiding people in the ass because now they have no means of defending themselves. If guns where legal, you would think twice about firing upon someone who could very well just turn around and fire back...

By Kiwi011 on 09/03/2008
QUOTE (bobler2 @ March 09, 2008 10:39 am)
Ummmm question, if you guys are talking about taking guns away then what good does that do? If say carrying guns was illegal, well the people that use them to kill wont exactly worry about breaking a law like that when they plan or carry out murder, all it does is bite the law abiding people in the ass because now they have no means of defending themselves. If guns where legal, you would think twice about firing upon someone who could very well just turn around and fire back...

lordy does not understand this.....it seems the world has the same look at the US. "You need to change not us"

pft......

By bobler2 on 09/03/2008
QUOTE (Kiwi011 @ March 09, 2008 08:39 pm)
QUOTE (bobler2 @ March 09, 2008 10:39 am)
Ummmm question, if you guys are talking about taking guns away then what good does that do? If say carrying guns was illegal, well the people that use them to kill wont exactly worry about breaking a law like that when they plan or carry out murder, all it does is bite the law abiding people in the ass because now they have no means of defending themselves. If guns where legal, you would think twice about firing upon someone who could very well just turn around and fire back...

lordy does not understand this.....it seems the world has the same look at the US. "You need to change not us"

pft......

Im in UK and am annoyed at knife ban. All the people in hoodies who use knife to mug and murder are hardly gonna go "ahh dam cant use it anymore its against the law"

Gordan Brown seems to want publicity by introducing new laws rather than actually ENFORCING the current ones because it get not as much publicity.

By T Dwag on 10/03/2008
The problem here isn't that we don't all have guns, the problem is we shouldn't have guns in the first place.


Brandon

By Mangomaniac2 on 10/03/2008
Erm, I think that the topic is about a shooting at college, not whether or not guns should be legal.

Sorry to hear that happened Ali sad.gif

By bobler2 on 10/03/2008
QUOTE (Sadcon1 @ March 10, 2008 02:21 am)
The problem here isn't that we don't all have guns, the problem is we shouldn't have guns in the first place.


Brandon

I THINK thats Lordy's view on the subject, and while that may be a better solution to everyone having guns, it is also unpratical. If you can come up with a way to prevent everyone from having guns i would gladly hear it, but its unlikely to happen.

QUOTE
Erm, I think that the topic is about a shooting at college, not whether or not guns should be legal


And they are not related?

By His Lordship on 11/03/2008
Well Australia used to have lax gun laws. Then the Australian Government bought back all the guns and made distribution illegal. Guns are still own in Australia, but under supremely strict licenses and for special reasons.

By Colinwarrior on 11/03/2008
Gene, I live in America, and I can say it's a love-hate relationship. I do live in fear. And I know it.

Btw, interesting fact = there are 90 guns to every 100 people in the US. And that includes children..so it's like 2 guns to every 1 adult here..

And in the ranking list of cities with the most violent crime per 100,000 people, Saginaw and Detroit, Michigan took 1st and 5th place, respectively. I live near both of those places. hash.png

By Gibble00 on 11/03/2008
Ow. Topic of major arguments.

I'll put it simply:

I live in America.
Despite recent events in my area (old topic) I'm not afraid.
I don't own a gun, nor do I ever plan to.
I think guns should be legal, however, maybe not handguns that you can easily conceal and kill with.
Rifles for sport must remain legal, as Jenny said, you may not understand Southern America.
The firearms industry is huge, magazines like Guns and Ammo (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/) are everywhere.

I believe that some of you are looking at the Second Amendment the wrong way. Most of the people who support it, and the politicians who do, do so because they use guns for sport, not because they own them to protect themselves. They want their 12-gauges and their .22's, they don't care about Wal-Mart handguns.


Furthermore, the rap culture has nothing to do with the growth of gun crimes. Rarely, rappers will boast about firearms, but for every one doing so, there are five calling out against their use. Remember guns brought down some of the greatest MCs of all time, why should people support the use of guns if they are capable of killing Biggie? Even some of my favorite rappers have advocated guns in their rhymes,
"Ya got guns, got guns too, what up son, do
you wanna battle for cash and see who Sun too?"
but I think that most listeners should be capable of separating entertainment from reality, just like we don't expect Halo-players to be shooting people up with assault rifles.

This rap culture came from a way of life in America. MCs rapping about guns grew up with them. But there are rappers out there nowadays who have never had anything to do with guns or the ghetto. The industry gets stereotyped a lot, often for the wrong reasons.

:cheers:

By Colinwarrior on 11/03/2008
Oh yeah, and I own a gun too. cool.gif

By Parth23 Jani on 11/03/2008
Like its been said before , guns shouldnt be allowed.

If you're saying 'innocent' people need guns to defend themselves you're stupid;you really are.




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